"Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

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"Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:05 pm

The Alternative Voting system proposed by the Lib Dems and many leftist “thinkers” is even more undemocratic than the existing First Past the Post system, Nick Griffin warns.

Urging members and supporters to get out and tell friends that the AV proposal is “designed to ensure permanent left-liberal government", Mr. Griffin said that the undemocratic nature of AV is highlighted by the “Yes” campaign's own obsession with "stopping the British National Party".

"The 'Yes' campaigners say their proposals would give more voters the chance to have their voice heard, but at the same time they boast that AV would 'keep out the BNP'.

In other words, it's fine for voters to be heard – as long as they're saying what the PC leftist elite want to hear.

"When people like Ed Miliband, the serial liar Nick Clegg, the inverse racist Greg Dyke and old-hand anti-British National Party cranks like Eddy Izzard are all in favour of something, you don't even really have to know what it is to be pretty sure that it's a bad idea.

The fact that they all go on to say that AV is good because it would stop voters electing the British National Party only confirms this is true.

"The hypocrisy of the liberal elite as they call for voting 'reform' on the grounds that it would make the system even more undemocratic than at present is truly revolting.”

Shutting out the public

Commenting on the “Yes” campaign’s widespread use of his photo on their posters, Mr. Griffin said that: "It highlights just how undemocratic their plan really is.

To try to sell a 'reform' on the grounds that it would help shut a significant and growing section of public opinion out of the democratic process is ludicrous.

"The fact is that AV wouldn't just shut out the British National Party; it would also discriminate against the Greens, Respect and other old-fashioned socialists.

I don't agree with much of what those parties say, but the idea that the public should effectively be denied the right to choose them should they so wish is grotesque.

"The slump in support for AV in the opinion polls also suggests that their anti-Griffin obsession is backfiring.

That's no surprise, because regardless of the wishful thinking of the political elite, the British National Party is well respected at least for telling things like they are, even among millions of people who don't yet vote for us.

"I was in hospital in central Birmingham for 24 hours last week having my pesky kidney stone lasered away (and yes, I'm now fighting fit!).

Had the PR 'gurus' behind the 'Yes' campaign been there they'd have seen they're making a big mistake.

All the native Brit patients were sympathetic, several markedly so.

An elderly Sikh chap was very friendly.

One member of staff wished us luck in the local elections; all the others were very friendly.

"Other patients and members of the public I passed in the corridors were all great too.

Even many members of ethnic minorities have got a lot of time for us, because they and their kids are sick of getting sent to the back of the queue behind newcomers when they've worked and paid in for years just like our people have.

"I was very much at ease in a busy NHS hospital for those 24 hours.

By his own cringing admission, Nick Clegg would be unable to say the same thing.

It was actually rather sad to hear that his nine-year-old asked him why so many people hate him.

When one of my daughters was that same age, she said to me, 'Daddy, you're so lucky that so many people love you.'

"Of course, not everybody feels that way about me or the British National Party, but the Islington set dinner party mindset of the 'Yes' campaign is a fine example of the perils of 'group think'.

Just because they all agree we're baby-eating monsters, they've convinced themselves that everyone out in the real world feels the same.

"They don't.

It's Nick Clegg who gets spat at by members of the public in the street.

He's the one who needs security with him if he goes into a pub, not me.

I'm the one they cross the road and the supermarket to shake hands with.

"That's why the 'Yes' campaign is backfiring," concluded Mr. Griffin.

"Loads of 'ordinary' people who normally wouldn't even have bothered to think about it are puzzling over those posters, seeing through the anti-democratic spin, and making up their minds that, as on immigration and Islam, the British National Party are right to oppose AV.

"Not only are Clegg and Co. going to lose the vote for their squalid, self-serving, undemocratic 'reform', but they are also reminding the public that – in an age when the political elite are not just corrupt and hated, but all essentially the same – there's one leader and one party who really are different.

We couldn't have paid for the amount of attention they're drawing to that fact."

The “Yes” campaign video that tells everyone why they should vote “No”!

The hatred and contempt which these liberal-left Islington intellectuals have for the white working class and ordinary taxpayers comes across all too clearly.

All Staffie owners are “extremists” to these anti-working-class bigots, and concern about immigration and hostility to the out-of-touch political elite, expressed peacefully through the ballot box, is unacceptable.

More than 30 per cent of voters in some areas are to be disenfranchised – and this is a step forward for democracy?

A recipe for resentment and mayhem, more like.

These people are as stupid as they are corrupt, because taking away people’s right to vote for effective change is always a trigger for future trouble.

They are trying to “sell” supposedly democratic reform by advocating customising the electoral system so that a legal political party, despite attracting large chunks of the vote, is effectively banned from representing the people who vote for them.

And they have such contempt for ordinary people that they take their Gucci-shoe version of fascism and try to sell it under the banner of "enhancing democracy".

It's like something out of Monty Python.

Then again, it's also remarkably similar to the gerrymandering in Northern Ireland in the 1960s, and remember where that led. So the “Yes” campaign’s assault on democracy really isn't funny. Evil or Very Mad

http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/dont-let-left-liberals-stitch-democracy-%E2%80%93-vote-no-av-referendum

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:18 pm

We have had AV for years in Australia and it has hardly served to shut parties out. We have 3 major parties in the House along with 2 minor parties and 4 independents. In the Senate we have 5 parties and 1 independent.

In my view the way it's done, particularly for the House, is not as democratic as Proportional Representation, but it's hardly a two party stitch-up, seeing how the major parties never have outright control of the Senate.

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:22 pm

John wrote:We have had AV for years in Australia and it has hardly served to shut parties out. We have 3 major parties in the House along with 2 minor parties and 4 independents. In the Senate we have 5 parties and 1 independent.

In my view the way it's done, particularly for the House, is not as democratic as Proportional Representation, but it's hardly a two party stitch-up, seeing how the major parties never have outright control of the Senate.

I doubt we'll ever get PR in this Country, as the LibLabCon, know that that will give us some BNP MP's! Twisted Evil

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:43 pm

PR would see the Greens in Australia go from 1 seat to 16 and gain the balance of power in the House.

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:54 pm

MrD, I have ZERO idea how AV works and I imagine that many don't.

I would live to join in but how the hell does it work. Any experts here.

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:08 pm

I have a postal vote and have already posted my three ballot papers. I have no doubt that I made the correct decision when I voted against the diabolical AV.

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:34 pm

It's one of those things that sounds a lot more complicated than it really is, when you explain it.

Let's use the results for Arfon in 2010 as an example link

In First Past the Post, you just put your X next to who you want and if they don't get in, your vote counts for nothing. With 36% of the votes, Plaid Cymru gets awarded the seat meaning the other 64% have had effectively no say.

In Alternative Voting [which should properly be called Preferential Voting], instead of putting an X, you put 1 for your first choice, 2 for your second choice and so on.

In Alternative Voting you must have 50%+1 of the votes to win the seat. Since no-one got 50% of the #1 [Primary] votes, they'd then look at all the #2s to see who people's next preferred is, and so on until the seat is won.

So back to Arfon, you could vote for say, UKIP, knowing they won't win, because your #2 vote is still going to give you the chance to choose who actually wins the seat and becomes the government. Whereas with FPTP, a minor party vote like that is only a protest vote, it has no effect on the outcome.

Hopefully this helps people see that AV is not designed to kill minor parties and may actually make them stronger.

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:00 pm

Well thanks for that.

It does not equate to PR which is what many people want but then I suppose the 3 main parties would lose their iron grip on our parliamentary system with all the benefits that brings them from big business.

And they can't have that can they?

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:29 pm

fred bloggs wrote:I have a postal vote and have already posted my three ballot papers. I have no doubt that I made the correct decision when I voted against the diabolical AV.

I would tell you, but no doubt I'd be accused of BNP bias! Wink

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:14 pm

Seren wrote:MrD, I have ZERO idea how AV works and I imagine that many don't.

I would live to join in but how the hell does it work. Any experts here.

Hopefully this isn't biased Politically, as this is the website to the official "No to AV" Campaign! Wink

www.no2av.org

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:26 pm

Seren wrote:Well thanks for that.

It does not equate to PR which is what many people want but then I suppose the 3 main parties would lose their iron grip on our parliamentary system with all the benefits that brings them from big business.

And they can't have that can they?

No it is far from PR- but Electotal Reformers from the Liberal Democrats and The Greens see this as a 'stepping stone' to that system. And a compromise since the Tories would NEVER risk PR.

You are absolutely right that Labour and the Tories don't want PR for the reasons you give. They would lose ALOT of seats and their 'god given right' to rule as a majority every decade or so. The Liberals on the other hand have most to gain from PR. Going off the last election they would have gone from 52 seats to 150ish.

This is purely the best they could get.

~John- as someone who is in a country that uses AV would you say it is actually a GOOD system in itself?

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:31 pm

On this subject- a readers letter in todays Guardian:

Since David Cameron is so opposed to alternative vote, he will, presumably, do the honourable thing- resign and hand over the David Davis. Davis was first past the post in the Tory leadership election and Cameron won because the Tories use the AV system, which gave him second preference votes.
Conversley- you can see why Ed Miliband is pro-AV Wink

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:50 am

~John- as someone who is in a country that uses AV would you say it is actually a GOOD system in itself?

Every voting system is flawed both practically and theoretically, as indeed democracy itself is, it's not perfect. I prefer AV to FPTP.

I neglected to point out that if your constituency is massively tilted one way the voting system makes no difference at all. The conservative in my seat, for instance, got 74% of the primary vote.

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 22, 2011 6:58 am

John wrote:~John- as someone who is in a country that uses AV would you say it is actually a GOOD system in itself?

Every voting system is flawed both practically and theoretically, as indeed democracy itself is, it's not perfect. I prefer AV to FPTP.

I neglected to point out that if your constituency is massively tilted one way the voting system makes no difference at all. The conservative in my seat, for instance, got 74% of the primary vote.

You live in a seat that's 74% conservative affraid I fear you are living in the wrong place comrade Wink

Yes it is true here in fact that based on the last election 2/3 of seats would actually have not changed either; with most candidates getting over 50% of close enough. But I also think some would alter their vote if they thought their second preference would still count (ie: still vote Green but make Labour second to keep the Tories out).

I also think AV is fairer in general; and do not understand how the BNP think it alters their chances at all. I have come and gone with AV but will I think be voting 'Yes' is a fortnights time.

Not that it matters, like you John, I'm in a pretty secure seat- though mine is Labour...

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:50 am

eilzel wrote:
You live in a seat that's 74% conservative affraid I fear you are living in the wrong place comrade Wink

You have no idea how lonely that can get pale

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:21 am

eilzel wrote:

No it is far from PR- but Electotal Reformers from the Liberal Democrats and The Greens see this as a 'stepping stone' to that system. And a compromise since the Tories would NEVER risk PR.

You are absolutely right that Labour and the Tories don't want PR for the reasons you give. They would lose ALOT of seats and their 'god given right' to rule as a majority every decade or so. The Liberals on the other hand have most to gain from PR. Going off the last election they would have gone from 52 seats to 150ish.

This is purely the best they could get.

~John- as someone who is in a country that uses AV would you say it is actually a GOOD system in itself?

The present system seems vastly unfair to smaller parties like you say. maybe AV is the way to go. I've yet to decide

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by Guest on Fri Apr 22, 2011 9:22 am

Seren wrote:Well thanks for that.

It does not equate to PR which is what many people want but then I suppose the 3 main parties would lose their iron grip on our parliamentary system with all the benefits that brings them from big business.

And they can't have that can they?

This hits the nail on the head Seren. It breaks up the domination of the main parties of our political system. This is particularly true of the Conservatives, who throughout last century governed more years than any other party but on average with less than a third of the popular vote. This is of course why the Tories are so vehemently against change.

AV may be not be perfect but it is far from the horrors the No campaign are portraying it to be and it is not complicated. We need change and this is a good stepping stone to full PR; a No vote here will set that aim back indefinately, which is of course exactly what the establishment wants, because a Yes vote would start returning some power to the people again and that is something they are desparate to avoid.

No democracy starting from scratch chooses First Past The Post as their system; the new democracies of Eastern Europe didn't choose it, nor have any other around the world. It is an arcane system and totally unrepresentative and you only have to look at the opposition lined up against AV- and the disinformation and ridiculous lies they are saying about changing the system- to see how desparate they are to maintain the current order which is runs entirely to their benefit at the moment, and they don't want that changed. That alone should convince peopel that a Yes vote is a positive one Very Happy

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Re: "Don't let the left-liberals stitch up democracy – Vote 'No' in AV Referendum"

Post by victorismyhero on Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:26 pm

John wrote:

You have no idea how lonely that can get pale

A lonely little petunia in an onion patch.........................
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