why are the abrahamic religions.....

...So vicious and intent on world domination....

Because they are historic doctrines- written by men with an agenda that involved growth in numbers, conquest and defence of a homeland. Everything they needed to unite a people are in these and at the time the holy books (Bible, Torah and Koran) would have been key to uniting a people in a common ideological cause.

You'd think most people would understand the historical context of these books today- and indeed many from all 3 of those faiths do. But some are blind to such understanding, or simply do not wish to as they are as agenda driven as those who wrote the things in the first place.

You've included the Bible in this, which is of course correct, but I would say that Christians are not as fanatic as the others on the whole. Its to do with a genetic mindset and the willingness to progress and think for yourself rather than as a collective (bit like socialists!)

Hello Sprite, glad to see you here

Although today the flow of violence comes predominantley from followers of the Koran, it certainly wasn't always the way. Once was a time Christendom was the most conquest minded religious group in history and as fanatical as any other.

There is no reason for Christian fanatisism anymore because we (as a community) already rule.

So Victors point is true. Jews of course are the ones mostly being unfairly hit here. But let's be honest, if Israel had the means, the Arab world would be ashes.

All 3 are as bad. Islam simply came later and has been stoked by a long period of western implerial influence; and that is one of the key factors in why it such a violent, intolerant and fanatic sect today.

Were you not born into a Christian family then americangal?

And I think all religions are a mixed bag. The preach mostly good, but some followers place too much emphasis on the bad- which is where supression and discrimination seek justification.

I think believing in a God and having a good moral code don't require a religion with baggage and no basis in fact.

stardesk wrote:Evening everyone. First of all may I say thanks to the admin' for letting me join this forum. Secondly, I apologise for copying and pasting here something I said on the other forum, but it certainly follows on from Eilzel's last comment on morals.

According to a survey in America, carried out by Sam Harris, and featured in his ‘Letter to a Christian Nation,’ more violent crimes are carried out in conservative Christian states than those of less Christian followers. Of 25 cities with lower rates of crime 62% are in the less-Christian, whilst 38% are in strong Christian cities/states. Of the 25 most dangerous cities 76% are in Christian states whilst only 24% are in less-Christian states. 3 of the most dangerous cities in the US are in the pious state of Texas. The 12 states with the highest rates of burglary are pious Christian states. 24 of the 29 states with the highest rates of theft are pro-Christian. Of the 22 states with the highest rates of murder, 17 are pro-Christian.

Another survey, carried out by Gregory Paul and published in the ‘Journal of Religion & Society,’ compared 17 economically developed nations, and reached a devastating conclusion that higher rates of belief in, and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Dan Dennett in ‘Breaking the Spell,’ commented: ‘…these results strike so hard at the standard claims of greater moral virtue among the religious, that there has been a considerable surge of further research initiated by religious organizations attempting to refute them…’

So, folks, as several of us have claimed in these discussions on morals, I’m sure the above findings bear out our claim that we do not need religion to be good people. Moral virtues, as I’ve claimed often, are not the sole prerogative of religion. Religion does not hold the controlling shares on who and how one behaves. It is a basic, fundamental virtue (?) practiced from a desire to give and hope to receive reciprocal benefits, thus enhancing one’s life style, one’s comfort, peace and security. I’m no longer religious but I lead a pleasant life with many friends. We help each other, we co-operate. I don’t need to believe in a god to make me a good person.

I agree with that Stardesk. Any religion is only as good as the people that follow it, and any religion can be warped by people with that mindset. The Jewish people have a group that is outlawed (Kach Party) and is classed as terrorist by Israel, USA and us. We all know what extremist Muslims can do and however much Americanangel might not like, there are plenty of Christian Fundamentalist White Supremicist groups in America, this was pointed out to me today: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41139894/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/. It is not the religion that is at fault, its the way people use it for their own ends. Take the leader of 'Christian Voice' in this country, Stephen Green: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351585/Stephen-Green-rails-immorality-voice-Christian-Britan-private-wife-beater-says-partner.html. He not only beats his wife, he says that women are not allowed to refuse sex to their husbands, it is their christian duty to provide it and if they do say no, then if the men carry on, it is not rape, it is what they are allowed to do because they are married. These people are not twisted because of their religion, they are twisted people who use their religion to justify what they want to do.

Good people are good people whatever their religion. I just do not feel the need for religion, I would rather be my own judge and have my own moral code. Its a damn site better than those I have just quoted.

[b]Hi Sassy, you're quite right about the USA. There have been several court cases over there in which religionists stopped evolution being taught in many schools. Their childrn will grow up with a very one-sided view of the world. What a terrible thing to do, for those kids wont have a choice and will not have a balanced education and understanding of the world around them.

Off to bed now, but will chase this one again tomorrow. Bye

stardesk wrote:Evening everyone. First of all may I say thanks to the admin' for letting me join this forum. Secondly, I apologise for copying and pasting here something I said on the other forum, but it certainly follows on from Eilzel's last comment on morals.

According to a survey in America, carried out by Sam Harris, and featured in his ‘Letter to a Christian Nation,’ more violent crimes are carried out in conservative Christian states than those of less Christian followers. Of 25 cities with lower rates of crime 62% are in the less-Christian, whilst 38% are in strong Christian cities/states. Of the 25 most dangerous cities 76% are in Christian states whilst only 24% are in less-Christian states. 3 of the most dangerous cities in the US are in the pious state of Texas. The 12 states with the highest rates of burglary are pious Christian states. 24 of the 29 states with the highest rates of theft are pro-Christian. Of the 22 states with the highest rates of murder, 17 are pro-Christian.

Another survey, carried out by Gregory Paul and published in the ‘Journal of Religion & Society,’ compared 17 economically developed nations, and reached a devastating conclusion that higher rates of belief in, and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

Dan Dennett in ‘Breaking the Spell,’ commented: ‘…these results strike so hard at the standard claims of greater moral virtue among the religious, that there has been a considerable surge of further research initiated by religious organizations attempting to refute them…’

So, folks, as several of us have claimed in these discussions on morals, I’m sure the above findings bear out our claim that we do not need religion to be good people. Moral virtues, as I’ve claimed often, are not the sole prerogative of religion. Religion does not hold the controlling shares on who and how one behaves. It is a basic, fundamental virtue (?) practiced from a desire to give and hope to receive reciprocal benefits, thus enhancing one’s life style, one’s comfort, peace and security. I’m no longer religious but I lead a pleasant life with many friends. We help each other, we co-operate. I don’t need to believe in a god to make me a good person.

Welcome Stardesk, so glad to se you here

That is some interesting research, I have actually heard before that the most religious Amercian states are among the most crime ridden.

There is a joke: "I used to pray to God for a bike; but then I realized it didn't work that way, so I stole a bike, and prayed for forgiveness." Quite funny if not LO funny. And it highlights another area I think. Religious mined people believe (Christians at least) that no matter what they do, God will forgive them in the end. Whereas athiests or the less devout religious people (most Brits for intance) do not see it this way, and live by the 'do unto others' moral thesis, though without the biblical inclination.

And then of course, where morals are concered; if one honestly believes the only reason they are ever good, is due to a need to please God, then that is not really good at all.

-Sassy. I agree with the point of what you're saying. BUT, religion IS still at fault. People cannot do bad things in the name of religion, if thebad things aren't there to begin with. If they can twist the words of the Bible to justify their actions, then suely here is some at least slightly fundamental issue at work in there.

eilzel wrote:

Welcome Stardesk, so glad to se you here

That is some interesting research, I have actually heard before that the most religious Amercian states are among the most crime ridden.

There is a joke: "I used to pray to God for a bike; but then I realized it didn't work that way, so I stole a bike, and prayed for forgiveness." Quite funny if not LO funny. And it highlights another area I think. Religious mined people believe (Christians at least) that no matter what they do, God will forgive them in the end. Whereas athiests or the less devout religious people (most Brits for intance) do not see it this way, and live by the 'do unto others' moral thesis, though without the biblical inclination.

And then of course, where morals are concered; if one honestly believes the only reason they are ever good, is due to a need to please God, then that is not really good at all.

-Sassy. I agree with the point of what you're saying. BUT, religion IS still at fault. People cannot do bad things in the name of religion, if thebad things aren't there to begin with. If they can twist the words of the Bible to justify their actions, then suely here is some at least slightly fundamental issue at work in there.

I totally get what you mean and am definitely not in the least religious, but I do thing bad people could use Charlie and the Chocolate Factory to justify themselves if necessary. I know plenty of 'religious' people who are lovely and lives by the best principles and if it helps them through life then thats fine, we all need all the help we can get, but I don't agree with it when children are indoctrinated and made to feel guilty about perfectly ordinary things as for example the RC church tends to. Some people need something outside themselves, they don't feel strong enough on their own. Personally, if I thought there was a God I would want to slap him for the mess he has made, so perhaps it is a good thing I am not religious!

sassy1261 wrote:

I totally get what you mean and am definitely not in the least religious, but I do thing bad people could use Charlie and the Chocolate Factory to justify themselves if necessary. I know plenty of 'religious' people who are lovely and lives by the best principles and if it helps them through life then thats fine, we all need all the help we can get, but I don't agree with it when children are indoctrinated and made to feel guilty about perfectly ordinary things as for example the RC church tends to. Some people need something outside themselves, they don't feel strong enough on their own. Personally, if I thought there was a God I would want to slap him for the mess he has made, so perhaps it is a good thing I am not religious!

Haha Totally agree with you're last sentence there; he(she?It?) would have a lot to answer for! Yes I understand some feel they need religion, which is not something I can empathise with but I do get. Anyway, that's me the night, bye for now x

eilzel wrote:

Haha Totally agree with you're last sentence there; he(she?It?) would have a lot to answer for! Yes I understand some feel they need religion, which is not something I can empathise with but I do get. Anyway, that's me the night, bye for now x

I'm off too dear, when admin has finished tweaking me as a Mod! Night Night x

Hi folks. Eilzel, I laughed at your joke about the bike, but how true it is. I think the Catholics are the worst ones for that kind of attitude. They believe that by going to confession their sins are forgiven.

We mentioned children earlier up the page. I have a couple of friends who are Witnesses and oh boy, how sorry I feel for their children. They are saturated 24/7 with the Bible. I happened to mention evolution to them one day and they were horrified, and tried to lecture me with quotes from the Bible. Poor little beggars, whatever will they be like when they get older? So closed minded, they'll only see the world and life from one very narrow angle.

Witnesses are far too pious imo. Not only are they denied to joys of celebration; but at times their beliefs lead to follow outrageious actions. I remember a news story a few years ago, of a couple who denied their daughter (in her early teens I think) a life saving blood tranfusion based on their beliefs

In this day and age such decisions are a morally astounding; yet people think we should respect their right to these views- but perhaps their daughter would have not believed as they did given half a chance! We should respect someones right to life first and foremost.

Witnesses I honestly believe are among the worst of the Christian sects.