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Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:52 pm

Yesterday Corbyn was saying that the Tories (who I am no fan of) don't know what they are doing regarding Bexit & have messed up the negotiations.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black,because Labour haven't got a clue what their policy is regarding Brexit either....One minute they want to stay in the custom union,the next they want to leave it.Then they say they want controlled immigration (which we all know is a blatant lie) & then say they want to keep the borders uncontrolled.

And to make Corbyn look even more stupid,the shadow Brexit secretary say this:

Labour’s Brexit confusion has rubbed off on the public who are clueless as to the party’s position on the issue. Newsnight aired vox pops last night in front of an embarrassed Keir Starmer. Emily Mailtis told the Shadow Brexit Secretary: “there was no one who understood what Labour believes on Brexit”. Starmer admitted:

“I appreciate that, we’ve obviously got to do much more work communicating our message.”

https://order-order.com/2017/10/13/starmer-admits-public-clueless-labours-brexit-policy/

Corbyn is a liar & his party has no Brexit strategy at all.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Sassy on Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:32 pm

You really haven't been paying attention have you. And Labour have been wiping the floor with the Cons (the floor is where they belong) who change there mind every two minutes and couldn't negotiate their way out of paper bag.




Negotiating Brexit

Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.

We will prioritise jobs and living standards, build a close new relationship with the EU, protect workers’ rights and environmental standards, provide certainty to EU nationals and give a meaningful role to Parliament throughout negotiations.

We will end Theresa May’s reckless approach to Brexit, and seek to unite the country around a Brexit deal that works for every community in Britain.

“Labour will always put jobs and the economy first”

We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

A Labour government will immediately guarantee existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain and secure reciprocal rights for UK citizens who have chosen to make their lives in EU countries. EU nationals do not just contribute to our society: they are part of our society. And they should not be used as bargaining chips.

It is shameful that the Prime Minister rejected repeated attempts by Labour to resolve this issue before Article 50 was triggered. As a result three million EU nationals have suffered unnecessary uncertainty, as have the 1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU.

A Conservative Brexit will weaken workers’ rights, deregulate the economy, slash corporate taxes, sideline Parliament and democratic accountability, and cut Britain off from our closest allies and most important trading partners.

Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and, if needs be, negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a ‘cliff-edge’ for the UK economy.

The issues that affect our continent now will continue to do so in the future – and Labour will continue to work constructively with the EU and other European nations on issues such as climate change, refugee crises and counter-terrorism.

We will build a close co-operative future relationship with the EU, not as members but as partners.

A Labour government will ensure that the UK maintains our leading research role by seeking to stay part of Horizon 2020 and its successor programmes and by welcoming research staff to the UK. We will seek to maintain membership of (or equivalent relationships with) European organisations which offer benefits to the UK such as Euratom and the European Medicines Agency. We will seek to ensure that Britain remains part of the Erasmus scheme so that British students have the same educational opportunities after we leave the EU.

The EU is the UK’s single largest trading partner in agricultural produce, with the vast majority of British exports being sold to European markets.

A Labour government will end the uncertainty for our farmers and food producers by securing continued EU market access allowing British farmers and food producers to continue to sell their products on the Continent.

Labour will also protect our farmers and rural economy by ensuring Britain continues to set the highest standards in food quality and welfare. We will not allow Brexit to be used as an excuse to undercut our farmers and flood Britain’s food chain with cheap and inferior produce.

We will drop the Conservatives’ Great Repeal Bill, replacing it with an EU Rights and Protections Bill that will ensure there is no detrimental change to workers’ rights, equality law, consumer rights or environmental protections as a result of Brexit.

Throughout the Brexit process, we will make sure that all EU-derived laws that are of benefit – including workplace laws, consumer rights and environmental protections – are fully protected without qualifications, limitations or sunset clauses. We will work with trade unions, businesses and stakeholders to ensure there is a consensus on this vital issue.

A Labour approach to Brexit will ensure there can be no rolling back of key rights and protections and that the UK does not lag behind Europe in workplace protections and environmental standards in future.

The EU has had a huge impact in securing workplace protections and environmental safeguards. But we all know that for many Brexiteers in the Tory Party, this was why they wanted to Leave – to tear up regulations and weaken hard-fought rights and protections.

A Labour government will never consider these rights a burden or accept the weakening of workers’ rights, consumer rights or environmental protections.

We will introduce legislation to ensure there are no gaps in national security and criminal justice arrangements as a result of Brexit.

Labour recognises the vital role that cross-border agencies such as Eurojust and Europol have played in making Britain safer and that European Arrest Warrants have been invaluable. A Labour government will seek to retain membership of these agencies and continue European Arrest Warrant arrangements.

Labour will seek a Brexit deal that delivers for all regions and nations of the UK.

We will introduce a ‘presumption of devolution’ where devolved powers transferred from the EU will go straight to the relevant region or nation. For many people and for much of our country, power can feel just as remote and unaccountable in Westminster as it does in Brussels. So a Labour government will seek to put powers as close to communities as possible.

We will ensure there is no drop in EU Structural Funding as a result of Brexit until the end of the current EU funding round in 2019/20. As part of Labour’s plans to rebalance and rebuild the economy, we will ensure that no region or nation of the UK is affected by the withdrawal of EU funding for the remainder of this Parliament. This will also apply to the funding of peace and reconciliation projects in Northern Ireland.

We will also improve engagement and dialogue with the devolved administrations and seek to ensure the final Brexit deal addresses specific concerns. In particular, Labour will ensure there is no return to a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and that there is no change in the status or sovereignty of Gibraltar. We will also protect Gibraltar’s economy and ensure that its government can continue to create jobs and prosperity in the years to come.

Where Theresa May wants to shut down scrutiny and challenge, Labour will welcome it. We will work with Parliament, not against it. On an issue of this importance, the Government can’t hide from the public or Parliament.

A Labour approach to Brexit also means legislating to guarantee that Parliament has a truly meaningful vote on the final Brexit deal.
Immigration

Labour offers fair rules and reasonable management of migration. In trade negotiations our priorities favour growth, jobs and prosperity. We make no apologies for putting these aims before bogus immigration targets.

Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.

Labour will develop and implement fair immigration rules. We will not discriminate between people of different races or creeds. We will end indefinite detentions and distinguish between migrant labour and family attachment and will continue to support the work of the Forced Marriage Unit. We will replace income thresholds with a prohibition on recourse to public funds. New rules will be equally informed by negotiations with the EU and other partners, including the Commonwealth.

Whatever our trade arrangements, we will need new migration management systems, transparent and fair to everybody. Working with businesses, trade unions, devolved governments and others to identify specific labour and skill shortages.

Working together we will institute a new system which is based on our economic needs, balancing controls and existing entitlements. This may include employer sponsorship, work permits, visa regulations or a tailored mix of all these which works for the many, not the few.

Labour will protect those already working here, whatever their ethnicity. Our National Education Service will raise the level of skills and training. We will take decisive action to end the exploitation of migrant labour undercutting workers’ pay and conditions.

Labour will crack down on unscrupulous employers. We will stop overseas-only recruitment practices, strengthen safety-at- work inspections and increase prosecutions of employers evading the minimum wage.

Working with trade unions, we will end workplace exploitation.

Labour values the economic and social contributions of immigrants. Both public and private sector employers depend on immigrants. We will not denigrate those workers. We value their contributions, including their tax contributions.

For areas where immigration has placed a strain on public services we will reinstate the Migrant Impact Fund and boost it with a contributory element from the investments required for High Net Worth Individual Visas. Labour will restore the rights of migrant domestic workers, and end this form of modern slavery.

Labour will ease the underlying pressures in any areas struggling to cope with seven years of austerity by our programme of investments. We will not cut public services and pretend the cuts are a consequence of immigration.

Refugees are not migrants. They have been forced from their homes, by war, famine or other disasters. Unlike the Tories, we will uphold the proud British tradition of honouring the spirit of international law and our moral obligations by taking our fair share of refugees. The current arrangements for housing and dispersing refugees are not fit for purpose. They are not fair to refugees or to our communities. We will review these arrangements.

Labour welcomes international students who benefit and strengthen our education sector, generating more than £25 billion for the British economy and significantly boosting regional jobs and local businesses. They are not permanent residents and we will not include them in immigration numbers, but we will crack down on fake colleges.
International Trade

Labour is pro-trade and pro-investment. The UK’s future prosperity depends on minimising tariff and non-tariff barriers that prevent us from exporting and creating the jobs and economic growth we need.

A Labour government will work with devolved administrations to bring forward an integrated trade and industrial strategy that boosts exports, investment and decent jobs in Britain.

Labour will set out our priorities in an International Trade White Paper to lead a national debate on the future of Britain’s trade policy. We will ensure proper transparency and parliamentary scrutiny of all future trade and investment deals.

The EU accounts for 44 per cent of our current exports and will continue to be a priority trading partner. As our trading relationship with the EU changes it is vital that we retain unrestricted access for our goods and services.

Through our Just Trading initiative launched in 2016, Labour will work with global trading partners to develop ‘best-in-class’ free trade and investment agreements that remove trade barriers and promote skilled jobs and high standards. We will ensure all future trade deals safeguard the right to regulate in the public interest and to protect public services.

Labour is committed to the rules-based international trading system of the World Trade Organisation (WTO). We will rejoin the Government Procurement Agreement, whilst safeguarding the capacity for public bodies to make procurement decisions in keeping with public policy objectives.

Labour will build human rights and social justice into trade policy.

We will ensure that trade agreements cannot undermine human rights and labour standards, and that UK Export Finance support is not available to companies engaged in bribery or corrupt practices.

We will work with other WTO members to end the dumping of state-subsidised goods on our markets. The Conservatives consistently blocked EU efforts to respond to such dumping with the duties needed to defend the British steel industry. Labour will develop the full range of trade remedies necessary to support key sectors affected by these unfair practices.

Labour will champion the export interests of SMEs, ensuring all new trade agreements include a commitment to support their market access needs.

We will develop an export incentive scheme for SMEs based on international best practice, and we will ring-fence Tradeshow Access Programme grants to help SMEs reach new customers around the world.

Labour will use the full range of export credit, finance, insurance and trade promotion tools to boost British exports and support priority industrial sectors.

We will create a network of regional trade and investment champions to promote the export and investment interests of businesses across the country, and we will include regional representation on overseas trade missions.

Labour is committed to growing the digital economy and ensuring that trade agreements do not impede cross-border data flows, whilst maintaining strong data protection rules to protect personal privacy. As part of our commitment to a low-carbon future, we will actively support international negotiations towards an Environmental Goods Agreement at the WTO. Labour will use trade negotiations to boost market access for British environmental goods and services, alongside support for investment into new green technologies and innovative low-carbon products.

Labour will develop capital investment schemes and other incentives to encourage investment into the UK, especially into target areas identified by the industrial strategy. We will champion the UK as a safe investment environment.

Labour will review our historic investment treaties with other countries, ensuring they are fit for purpose for the 21st century. Labour opposes parallel investor-state dispute systems for multinational corporations and we will open a dialogue with trading partners on alternative options that provide investor protection whilst guaranteeing equality before the law.


https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/


Sir Keir Starmer on Labour's policies:




Hope that educates you about things you should have already looked up.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:22 pm

You momentum liars make it up as you go along & the catalogue of Labour policies changes,shifts & contradictions regarding Brexit is endless.

The Tory Brexit negotiations are not going as well as hoped but nowhere near as bad as the media & Corbyn would have us believe.

Now I'm no business man,but you don't have to be one to understand that the negotiations were never going to easy & uncomplicated.That's business & it will all work out in the end,mainly because it's in the EUs interest for there to be a deal of some sort.

Anyway,Corbyn is already backtracking on his Brexit stance & his claim that Labour would still leave the EU if they were in power is being exposed as yet another lie.

Momentum & their puppet Corbyn want to stay in the EU because that way,they can continue with their mad desire for mass immigration & the further influx of muslims.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Sassy on Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:42 pm

In former days -- that is to say, once upon a time, there lived in the Land of Gramblamble, Seven Families. They lived by the side of the great Lake Pipple-popple (one of the Seven Families, indeed, lived in the Lake), and on the outskirts of the City of Tosh, which, excepting when it was quite dark, they could see plainly. The names of all these places you have probably heard of, and you have only not to look in your Geography books to find out all about them.

Now the Seven Families who lived on the borders of the great Lake Pipple-popple, were as follows in the next Chapter.



As you like nonsense so much, you can read the rest of it here:

http://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/ns/pp.html
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:17 pm

It was fascinating to read the links and even more bewildering to watch the interaction between the members over on that place where we first met {no need to mention old news} but for those that just can't see beyond their own noses/front door/extension of their property line ...they just don't seem to GET IT.  How convoluted & complex pulling out of the EU is/was and how widespread the impact is going to be.

And as I read each members own little version of their minute angst and ranting rational ...the scope that they needed to see was so vastly larger than what they were pissed off about and those repercussions were going to impact them in far more ways then that #1 single issue of 'too many Muslims'!  < just my example there were other's like NHS & Dr's & nurses. 

From your article >  
The EU is the UK’s single largest trading partner in agricultural produce, with the vast majority of British exports being sold to European markets.

A Labour government will end the uncertainty for our farmers and food producers by securing continued EU market access allowing British farmers and food producers to continue to sell their products on the Continent.

Labour will also protect our farmers and rural economy by ensuring Britain continues to set the highest standards in food quality and welfare. We will not allow Brexit to be used as an excuse to undercut our farmers and flood Britain’s food chain with cheap and inferior produce.
This is precisely the issue that our 'Agent Orange' couldn't grasp/had no bonefide idea about ...and now he's rethinking his threats to pull out of NAFTA. 
While there are some minute issues within those trade deals that need tweaked and should be improved/modified/changed ...pulling out of NAFTA ripples out into such a broadband range of traded goods & services and out into our farm lands! 
Our oval office buffoon just heard the creeping/slimy negative agenda driven voices telling him what they wanted him to hear and he had no desire to open his mind & ask 'well, what's benefitting the USA for the NAFTA agreement?'
Now Chump just continues to look like a complete dumbass that flip/flops around on any issue and hasn't the brain cells to think or have a discussion about the Pro's & Con's of the NAFTA trade deal. 

Or anything that he's put his magic Executive Order Pen too ...he's just a moron with power and it's so futile to hope he's ever going to get a clue.

But this EU, is as complex and all encompassing as I had first thought!
The mere idea that those labor people going out of England borders into those other countries will now be exposed to a certain tariff that they hadn't faced prior do to the EU agreement. Correct me if I didn't remember that right, but that's what I'd read.  
That ripples right back into a negative impact for England's tax base - who has spendable income - then small businesses suffer etc., etc., etc.    
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:05 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:It was fascinating to read the links and even more bewildering to watch the interaction between the members over on that place where we first met {no need to mention old news} but for those that just can't see beyond their own noses/front door/extension of their property line ...they just don't seem to GET IT.  How convoluted & complex pulling out of the EU is/was and how widespread the impact is going to be.

And as I read each members own little version of their minute angst and ranting rational ...the scope that they needed to see was so vastly larger than what they were pissed off about and those repercussions were going to impact them in far more ways then that #1 single issue of 'too many Muslims'!  < just my example there were other's like NHS & Dr's & nurses. 

From your article >  
The EU is the UK’s single largest trading partner in agricultural produce, with the vast majority of British exports being sold to European markets.

A Labour government will end the uncertainty for our farmers and food producers by securing continued EU market access allowing British farmers and food producers to continue to sell their products on the Continent.

Labour will also protect our farmers and rural economy by ensuring Britain continues to set the highest standards in food quality and welfare. We will not allow Brexit to be used as an excuse to undercut our farmers and flood Britain’s food chain with cheap and inferior produce.
This is precisely the issue that our 'Agent Orange' couldn't grasp/had no bonefide idea about ...and now he's rethinking his threats to pull out of NAFTA. 
While there are some minute issues within those trade deals that need tweaked and should be improved/modified/changed ...pulling out of NAFTA ripples out into such a broadband range of traded goods & services and out into our farm lands! 
Our oval office buffoon just heard the creeping/slimy negative agenda driven voices telling him what they wanted him to hear and he had no desire to open his mind & ask 'well, what's benefitting the USA for the NAFTA agreement?'
Now Chump just continues to look like a complete dumbass that flip/flops around on any issue and hasn't the brain cells to think or have a discussion about the Pro's & Con's of the NAFTA trade deal. 

Or anything that he's put his magic Executive Order Pen too ...he's just a moron with power and it's so futile to hope he's ever going to get a clue.

But this EU, is as complex and all encompassing as I had first thought!
The mere idea that those labor people going out of England borders into those other countries will now be exposed to a certain tariff that they hadn't faced prior do to the EU agreement. Correct me if I didn't remember that right, but that's what I'd read.  
That ripples right back into a negative impact for England's tax base - who has spendable income - then small businesses suffer etc., etc., etc.    

Regarding Brexit,your comments are based on the Remainers points of view of which there are many valid points.

However,there are as many valid points of view on the Leavers side.For those like me who voted to leave but have little business experience,we nonetheless understand that business negotiations will not be a walk in the park.

There will be many complex matters to discuss & decide upon but in the end,there will be a deal because it's as much in the interest of the continental Europeans as the UKs to secure a good deal.Remember,there are about 60 million Brits who can afford to buys goods from the EU & the EU wants to keep it that way.

Project fear as perpetuated by the likes of Richard Branson & our former chancellor of the exchequer have been blown out of the water by many qualified people time & time again.And at the end of the day & in terms of trade deals,all the UK will do,is strike new business deals with countries outside of the EU.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Sassy on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:26 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:It was fascinating to read the links and even more bewildering to watch the interaction between the members over on that place where we first met {no need to mention old news} but for those that just can't see beyond their own noses/front door/extension of their property line ...they just don't seem to GET IT.  How convoluted & complex pulling out of the EU is/was and how widespread the impact is going to be.

And as I read each members own little version of their minute angst and ranting rational ...the scope that they needed to see was so vastly larger than what they were pissed off about and those repercussions were going to impact them in far more ways then that #1 single issue of 'too many Muslims'!  < just my example there were other's like NHS & Dr's & nurses. 

From your article >  
The EU is the UK’s single largest trading partner in agricultural produce, with the vast majority of British exports being sold to European markets.

A Labour government will end the uncertainty for our farmers and food producers by securing continued EU market access allowing British farmers and food producers to continue to sell their products on the Continent.

Labour will also protect our farmers and rural economy by ensuring Britain continues to set the highest standards in food quality and welfare. We will not allow Brexit to be used as an excuse to undercut our farmers and flood Britain’s food chain with cheap and inferior produce.
This is precisely the issue that our 'Agent Orange' couldn't grasp/had no bonefide idea about ...and now he's rethinking his threats to pull out of NAFTA. 
While there are some minute issues within those trade deals that need tweaked and should be improved/modified/changed ...pulling out of NAFTA ripples out into such a broadband range of traded goods & services and out into our farm lands! 
Our oval office buffoon just heard the creeping/slimy negative agenda driven voices telling him what they wanted him to hear and he had no desire to open his mind & ask 'well, what's benefitting the USA for the NAFTA agreement?'
Now Chump just continues to look like a complete dumbass that flip/flops around on any issue and hasn't the brain cells to think or have a discussion about the Pro's & Con's of the NAFTA trade deal. 

Or anything that he's put his magic Executive Order Pen too ...he's just a moron with power and it's so futile to hope he's ever going to get a clue.

But this EU, is as complex and all encompassing as I had first thought!
The mere idea that those labor people going out of England borders into those other countries will now be exposed to a certain tariff that they hadn't faced prior do to the EU agreement. Correct me if I didn't remember that right, but that's what I'd read.  
That ripples right back into a negative impact for England's tax base - who has spendable income - then small businesses suffer etc., etc., etc.    


Trouble is, we have total morons who lied through their back teeth to make brexit happen




They don't have a clue what they are doing. Food prices have risen by 13.5% and still climbing, the pound is falling, farmers say they can only produce 50% of our food, and 10% of that is exported, foreign investment is dropping by the minute, and we have just lost $490BILLION. Truthfully, there is no possible way it could be made any worse.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:31 pm

Shady2 stated > There will be many complex matters to discuss & decide upon but in the end, there will be a deal because it's as much in the interest of the continental Europeans as the UKs to secure a good deal. Remember, there are about 60 million Brits who can afford to buys goods from the EU & the EU wants to keep it that way.
And that's an important part & partial of the EU original agreement. 
But why - WHY wouldn't that be something to work out via the entire EU meetings instead of doing a full throttle reverse and dumping the 'baby out with the bath water' voted reaction?
The EU protocol/agreement was based on many factors, none as important as sustaining the failing Greek economy and that's why all of the European nations collectively went into this ...and all of those in the EU agreement was guarding their own slice of the beneficial slice of pie!
But in order to sustain the agreement - HONOR England's position, the problems need tweaking and RESOLUTION; not bailing out and causing such a huge ripple affect across Europe! 
Self-defeating and HUGELY self serving ...and it won't bode well for imports/duty fees/tariffs that were under that EU agreement! 
I just don't see those other nations thinking that they need to be concerned about England's cash flow worries and how out of pocket purchases will impact 'John Q Public'.  No
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:38 pm

Sassy stated > They don't have a clue what they are doing. Food prices have risen by 13.5% and still climbing, the pound is falling, farmers say they can only produce 50% of our food, and 10% of that is exported, foreign investment is dropping by the minute, and we have just lost $490BILLION. Truthfully, there is no possible way it could be made any worse.
TY, dear lady ...that justified my concern; we are going to face the exact same thing here.  If and when our 'Agent Orange' completes his utter destruction for the NAFTA agreement.
And given our lack of migrant labor force - farm to table produce/fruit/vegetables are rotting in our fields - the drought driven wild fires killed off a large quantity of feed cattle & pastures that sustained them - climate change has caused more changes in rainy periods that has disrupted the planting cycles for other production crops, here in the heartland and down south where the bulk of our cotton/rice/vegetables/fruit crops are grown!

There are some horrible - expensive hard times ahead and it's going to be hard for those marginal families to survive ...now those non-marginal families are slipping farther & farther into poverty pocket and our Agent Orange is budget cutting with an electric knife! Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Sassy on Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:50 pm

Indeed. We fought for a better world for our children, and the Orange Agent and our Clueless Wonders, are making it a worse one. Damn them!
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:17 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 stated > There will be many complex matters to discuss & decide upon but in the end, there will be a deal because it's as much in the interest of the continental Europeans as the UKs to secure a good deal. Remember, there are about 60 million Brits who can afford to buys goods from the EU & the EU wants to keep it that way.
And that's an important part & partial of the EU original agreement. 
But why - WHY wouldn't that be something to work out via the entire EU meetings instead of doing a full throttle reverse and dumping the 'baby out with the bath water' voted reaction?
The EU protocol/agreement was based on many factors, none as important as sustaining the failing Greek economy and that's why all of the European nations collectively went into this ...and all of those in the EU agreement was guarding their own slice of the beneficial slice of pie!
But in order to sustain the agreement - HONOR England's position, the problems need tweaking and RESOLUTION; not bailing out and causing such a huge ripple affect across Europe! 
Self-defeating and HUGELY self serving ...and it won't bode well for imports/duty fees/tariffs that were under that EU agreement! 
I just don't see those other nations thinking that they need to be concerned about England's cash flow worries and how out of pocket purchases will impact 'John Q Public'.  No

I take your points but our former Prime Minister David Cameron tried to negotiate a deal along the lines that you mention before the EU referendum......And the EU showed him the door in a most humiliating way.They simply would not budge or negotiate a deal with him,& that total disregard for the wishes of the UK was the final straw for many of us who went on to vote for Brexit.

Our weak PM humiliated & Britons requests totally disregarded.One of the main sticking pieces was the EUs immovable position regarding immigration & free movement.You may recall that the UK wanted to stop free movement but that was a non starter with the EU.

Now though,I have read many reports from the EU in which they seem to be changing their minds about free movement & might accept a compromise.Well that's a bit late now as the referendum was over a year ago.

On a personal note,if free movement had ended to the UK & we were allowed to cherry pick potential entrants,then I may have voted to Remain.And that's nothing to do racism on my part,just plain common sense because the UK dos not have the money or infrastructure to cope with all these people.

I agree that there will be a ripple effect across the EU but that effect eventually will be a positive one.And going off on a tangent,the EU is finished anyway.Poland,Hungary & Romania are ignoring just about everything the EU says.

Spain may be on the cusp of civil war.The Greeks hate the Germans with a dangerous vengeance.

Merkel is looking weak following the last German general eletion.

Italy cannot cope with the influx of migrants.And look at Austria.....they have voted in a right wing coalition.....And of course,there is Brexit.

And Brexit may well be the least of Europes problems when you take into account Austria.

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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:37 pm

Shady2 wrote:
Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 stated > There will be many complex matters to discuss & decide upon but in the end, there will be a deal because it's as much in the interest of the continental Europeans as the UKs to secure a good deal. Remember, there are about 60 million Brits who can afford to buys goods from the EU & the EU wants to keep it that way.
And that's an important part & partial of the EU original agreement. 
But why - WHY wouldn't that be something to work out via the entire EU meetings instead of doing a full throttle reverse and dumping the 'baby out with the bath water' voted reaction?
The EU protocol/agreement was based on many factors, none as important as sustaining the failing Greek economy and that's why all of the European nations collectively went into this ...and all of those in the EU agreement was guarding their own slice of the beneficial slice of pie!
But in order to sustain the agreement - HONOR England's position, the problems need tweaking and RESOLUTION; not bailing out and causing such a huge ripple affect across Europe! 
Self-defeating and HUGELY self serving ...and it won't bode well for imports/duty fees/tariffs that were under that EU agreement! 
I just don't see those other nations thinking that they need to be concerned about England's cash flow worries and how out of pocket purchases will impact 'John Q Public'.  No

I take your points but our former Prime Minister David Cameron tried to negotiate a deal along the lines that you mention before the EU referendum......And the EU showed him the door in a most humiliating way.They simply would not budge or negotiate a deal with him,& that total disregard for the wishes of the UK was the final straw for many of us who went on to vote for Brexit.

Our weak PM humiliated & Britons requests totally disregarded. One of the main sticking pieces was the EUs immovable position regarding immigration & free movement.You may recall that the UK wanted to stop free movement but that was a non starter with the EU.

Now though,I have read many reports from the EU in which they seem to be changing their minds about free movement & might accept a compromise.Well that's a bit late now as the referendum was over a year ago.

On a personal note,if free movement had ended to the UK & we were allowed to cherry pick potential entrants,then I may have voted to Remain.And that's nothing to do racism on my part,just plain common sense because the UK dos not have the money or infrastructure to cope with all these people.

I agree that there will be a ripple effect across the EU but that effect eventually will be a positive one.And going off on a tangent,the EU is finished anyway.Poland,Hungary & Romania are ignoring just about everything the EU says.

Spain may be on the cusp of civil war.The Greeks hate the Germans with a dangerous vengeance.

Merkel is looking weak following the last German general eletion.

Italy cannot cope with the influx of migrants.And look at Austria.....they have voted in a right wing coalition.....And of course,there is Brexit.

And Brexit may well be the least of Europes problems when you take into account Austria.

Ahhhh, that 'HUMAN FACTOR' that seems to trip up any decent negotiation.

Shady2 stated >
Our weak PM humiliated & Britons requests totally disregarded.

This is a major concern for many of us here in America; while the 'Agent Orange' has boasted/preened/claimed ..."I am the greatest - BEST NEOGTIATOR, ever - my grand buildings & business deals are famous around the world"   The reality is ...he's so unstable & now proven his immaturity that none of the thinking/educated leaders will treat his negotiations with any value or respect. 
I know we can't 'REDO HISTORY' but had PM David Cameron been a better salesman - been able to push his agenda - bring more EU leaders around; wouldn't that have made a difference? 
Well, that and the trickery used to sell a 'LIE' in obtaining votes; was as old as time for the 'BREXIT' stratagem and it worked.
There was lots of 'Voters Remorse' after the dust settled and the shock hit those people - and the NHS lie for NON-Donations was exposed.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:12 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 wrote:
Aspca4ever wrote:
And that's an important part & partial of the EU original agreement. 
But why - WHY wouldn't that be something to work out via the entire EU meetings instead of doing a full throttle reverse and dumping the 'baby out with the bath water' voted reaction?
The EU protocol/agreement was based on many factors, none as important as sustaining the failing Greek economy and that's why all of the European nations collectively went into this ...and all of those in the EU agreement was guarding their own slice of the beneficial slice of pie!
But in order to sustain the agreement - HONOR England's position, the problems need tweaking and RESOLUTION; not bailing out and causing such a huge ripple affect across Europe! 
Self-defeating and HUGELY self serving ...and it won't bode well for imports/duty fees/tariffs that were under that EU agreement! 
I just don't see those other nations thinking that they need to be concerned about England's cash flow worries and how out of pocket purchases will impact 'John Q Public'.  No

I take your points but our former Prime Minister David Cameron tried to negotiate a deal along the lines that you mention before the EU referendum......And the EU showed him the door in a most humiliating way.They simply would not budge or negotiate a deal with him,& that total disregard for the wishes of the UK was the final straw for many of us who went on to vote for Brexit.

Our weak PM humiliated & Britons requests totally disregarded. One of the main sticking pieces was the EUs immovable position regarding immigration & free movement.You may recall that the UK wanted to stop free movement but that was a non starter with the EU.

Now though,I have read many reports from the EU in which they seem to be changing their minds about free movement & might accept a compromise.Well that's a bit late now as the referendum was over a year ago.

On a personal note,if free movement had ended to the UK & we were allowed to cherry pick potential entrants,then I may have voted to Remain.And that's nothing to do racism on my part,just plain common sense because the UK dos not have the money or infrastructure to cope with all these people.

I agree that there will be a ripple effect across the EU but that effect eventually will be a positive one.And going off on a tangent,the EU is finished anyway.Poland,Hungary & Romania are ignoring just about everything the EU says.

Spain may be on the cusp of civil war.The Greeks hate the Germans with a dangerous vengeance.

Merkel is looking weak following the last German general eletion.

Italy cannot cope with the influx of migrants.And look at Austria.....they have voted in a right wing coalition.....And of course,there is Brexit.

And Brexit may well be the least of Europes problems when you take into account Austria.

Ahhhh, that 'HUMAN FACTOR' that seems to trip up any decent negotiation.

Shady2 stated >
Our weak PM humiliated & Britons requests totally disregarded.

This is a major concern for many of us here in America; while the 'Agent Orange' has boasted/preened/claimed ..."I am the greatest - BEST NEOGTIATOR, ever - my grand buildings & business deals are famous around the world"   The reality is ...he's so unstable & now proven his immaturity that none of the thinking/educated leaders will treat his negotiations with any value or respect. 
I know we can't 'REDO HISTORY' but had PM David Cameron been a better salesman - been able to push his agenda - bring more EU leaders around; wouldn't that have made a difference? 
Well, that and the trickery used to sell a 'LIE' in obtaining votes; was as old as time for the 'BREXIT' stratagem and it worked.
There was lots of 'Voters Remorse' after the dust settled and the shock hit those people - and the NHS lie for NON-Donations was exposed.

And there are a lot of Remainers who have publicly voiced that they wish they had voted Leave.

To answer your question about David Cameron,yes if he had been a better salesman then that may have made a difference.

Regarding the process leading up to the referendum & the present period of Brexit negotiations,never in my lifetime have I seen so much propaganda used by politicians,the media & the Remainers about a subject.

Their attitude is akin to Goebbels & his use of propaganda which in turn reinforced the Leavers resolve towards Brexit.

Sure there has been some waffle on the Leave side but nothing compared to the Remainers.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Sassy on Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:51 pm

Put your glasses back on. It has been verified that those promoting Leave lied through their back teeth, and some of them continue to do so.

Evidence coming in from all over the place that leaving will be a fuckking disaster, especially if the Tories continue the way they are going. I shan't bother to post it all, my time's too precious and you don't bother with evidence anyway.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:36 pm

Sassy wrote:Put your glasses back on.  It has been verified that those promoting Leave lied through their back teeth, and some of them continue to do so.  

Evidence coming in from all over the place that leaving will be a fuckking disaster, especially if the Tories continue the way they are going.   I shan't bother to post it all, my time's too precious and you don't bother with evidence anyway.

Are you in a mood?
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:51 pm

Well, there is a ton of decent adult discussion over on that other former community {sans the immature insertions from the parachute pack attackers} ...just do a word search for 'BREXIT' and you'll find a plethora of topics and discussions that Sassy & I participated in regarding this very issue. 
You are allowed in that community aren't you?
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:Well, there is a ton of decent adult discussion over on that other former community {sans the immature insertions from the parachute pack attackers} ...just do a word search for 'BREXIT' and you'll find a plethora of topics and discussions that Sassy & I participated in regarding this very issue. 
You are allowed in that community aren't you?

If you're talking to me,I don't what you are talking about.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:06 pm

Shady2 wrote:
Aspca4ever wrote:Well, there is a ton of decent adult discussion over on that other former community {sans the immature insertions from the parachute pack attackers} ...just do a word search for 'BREXIT' and you'll find a plethora of topics and discussions that Sassy & I participated in regarding this very issue. 
You are allowed in that community aren't you?

If you're talking to me,I don't what you are talking about.

Sorry, Shady ...my hands are in full blown pain mode and typing is very difficult and my concentration is F'd up as well. 

I missed pulling the quote into my reply >

Sassy wrote:Put your glasses back on.  It has been verified that those promoting Leave lied through their back teeth, and some of them continue to do so.  

Evidence coming in from all over the place that leaving will be a fuckking disaster, especially if the Tories continue the way they are going.   I shan't bother to post it all, my time's too precious and you don't bother with evidence anyway.

There are SERIOUSLY, some well fought out discussions over on NF, if you are allowed membership in there.  Before the 'parachute packers' ruined the conversations ...we had some really great threads going!
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:11 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 wrote:
Aspca4ever wrote:Well, there is a ton of decent adult discussion over on that other former community {sans the immature insertions from the parachute pack attackers} ...just do a word search for 'BREXIT' and you'll find a plethora of topics and discussions that Sassy & I participated in regarding this very issue. 
You are allowed in that community aren't you?

If you're talking to me,I don't what you are talking about.

Sorry, Shady ...my hands are in full blown pain mode and typing is very difficult and my concentration is F'd up as well. 

I missed pulling the quote into my reply >

Sassy wrote:Put your glasses back on.  It has been verified that those promoting Leave lied through their back teeth, and some of them continue to do so.  

Evidence coming in from all over the place that leaving will be a fuckking disaster, especially if the Tories continue the way they are going.   I shan't bother to post it all, my time's too precious and you don't bother with evidence anyway.

There are SERIOUSLY, some well fought out discussions over on NF, if you are allowed membership in there.  Before the 'parachute packers' ruined the conversations ...we had some really great threads going!

I take it you mean Newsfix Niceboard? If so,I used to be a member there but got fed posting on a site that consisted of so many IRA supporters.

Plus the censorship was too rigid & biased towards posters favoured by the mods.

What's up with your hands Aspca4ever? Injury or something like arthritis?
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:41 pm

Shady2 wrote:

I take it you mean Newsfix Niceboard? If so,I used to be a member there but got fed posting on a site that consisted of so many IRA supporters.

Plus the censorship was too rigid & biased towards posters favoured by the mods.

What's up with your hands Aspca4ever? Injury or something like arthritis?
Well, poop ...there's some grand posting over there.  I'll see if my search options still work and C & P some of those links & posts I'd used over here.  It will be later though.

Oh, well - about me!  Got bit by a pen head sized deer tick in 2014 {wedged between by toes} and within a couple of weeks I'd contracted Lyme's and the rest is a horrid history of medical applications of medicines and therapies to modify how restrictive my mobility was going to keep me!  I still have reoccurrence of extremity pain & mobility issues that make ya wanna SLAP YO MOMMA or KICK THE DOGS!  I'm being ironic as I would never do either, but that's just how bad the joint & bone pain comes roaring back to life. 
But 'I've Come A Long Way Baby' and I'm not confined into a wheel chair - moved on from my walker - have left my 2 canes behind and now have to use the #1 walking stick for support - when my hands are behaving.  LOL
That was more than you wanted to know, but it's what I'm proud of and how far this Lyme's has taken me and what I've climbed out of. 
I wont' be completely done with it ...once this blood borne invasive bastard hits the blood stream/attacks the joints & bone connecting areas - finds all of those places you've used & abuse in your youth: it will make you contemplate other options for life ending situations instead of tipping the PAIN PILL BOTTLE up and taking a few more pills. 
It loves to just hang around and find a warm place to dwell and then 'SURPRISE' ...I'm still here, just thought I'd pop up and make this day a really horrible reminder that you aren't rid of me yet!  Twisted Evil
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:27 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 wrote:

I take it you mean Newsfix Niceboard? If so,I used to be a member there but got fed posting on a site that consisted of so many IRA supporters.

Plus the censorship was too rigid & biased towards posters favoured by the mods.

What's up with your hands Aspca4ever? Injury or something like arthritis?
Well, poop ...there's some grand posting over there.  I'll see if my search options still work and C & P some of those links & posts I'd used over here.  It will be later though.

Oh, well - about me!  Got bit by a pen head sized deer tick in 2014 {wedged between by toes} and within a couple of weeks I'd contracted Lyme's and the rest is a horrid history of medical applications of medicines and therapies to modify how restrictive my mobility was going to keep me!  I still have reoccurrence of extremity pain & mobility issues that make ya wanna SLAP YO MOMMA or KICK THE DOGS!  I'm being ironic as I would never do either, but that's just how bad the joint & bone pain comes roaring back to life. 
But 'I've Come A Long Way Baby' and I'm not confined into a wheel chair - moved on from my walker - have left my 2 canes behind and now have to use the #1 walking stick for support - when my hands are behaving.  LOL
That was more than you wanted to know, but it's what I'm proud of and how far this Lyme's has taken me and what I've climbed out of. 
I wont' be completely done with it ...once this blood borne invasive bastard hits the blood stream/attacks the joints & bone connecting areas - finds all of those places you've used & abuse in your youth: it will make you contemplate other options for life ending situations instead of tipping the PAIN PILL BOTTLE up and taking a few more pills. 
It loves to just hang around and find a warm place to dwell and then 'SURPRISE' ...I'm still here, just thought I'd pop up and make this day a really horrible reminder that you aren't rid of me yet!  Twisted Evil

Good afternoon Aspca4ever.

Sorry to learn of your medical condition & I hope the pain eases & you make the fullest of recoveries.
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Aspca4ever on Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:19 pm

Shady2 wrote:
Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 wrote:I take it you mean Newsfix Niceboard? If so,I used to be a member there but got fed posting on a site that consisted of so many IRA supporters.

Plus the censorship was too rigid & biased towards posters favoured by the mods.

What's up with your hands Aspca4ever? Injury or something like arthritis?
Well, poop ...there's some grand posting over there.  I'll see if my search options still work and C & P some of those links & posts I'd used over here.  It will be later though.

Oh, well - about me!  Got bit by a pen head sized deer tick in 2014 {wedged between by toes} and within a couple of weeks I'd contracted Lyme's and the rest is a horrid history of medical applications of medicines and therapies to modify how restrictive my mobility was going to keep me!  I still have reoccurrence of extremity pain & mobility issues that make ya wanna SLAP YO MOMMA or KICK THE DOGS!  I'm being ironic as I would never do either, but that's just how bad the joint & bone pain comes roaring back to life. 
But 'I've Come A Long Way Baby' and I'm not confined into a wheel chair - moved on from my walker - have left my 2 canes behind and now have to use the #1 walking stick for support - when my hands are behaving.  LOL
That was more than you wanted to know, but it's what I'm proud of and how far this Lyme's has taken me and what I've climbed out of. 
I wont' be completely done with it ...once this blood borne invasive bastard hits the blood stream/attacks the joints & bone connecting areas - finds all of those places you've used & abuse in your youth: it will make you contemplate other options for life ending situations instead of tipping the PAIN PILL BOTTLE up and taking a few more pills. 
It loves to just hang around and find a warm place to dwell and then 'SURPRISE' ...I'm still here, just thought I'd pop up and make this day a really horrible reminder that you aren't rid of me yet!  Twisted Evil

Good afternoon Aspca4ever.

Sorry to learn of your medical condition & I hope the pain eases & you make the fullest of recoveries.
TY, kind sir; I'm so far recovered from 3 years ago and 85% better than even last year at this time ...but each day - each barometric sudden change brings about a renewed surge of reminders and then that engages my brain fog and I want to go hibernate for a while.  LOL
I've just begun a correspondence with a young 37yr old man that is going through what I did early on and he's got a young family; can't tell you what the horror of my suck face Gov. & his budget cutting our states benefits & that even crueler 'Agent Orange' does to people like this guy! 
Trying to find resources to help him - feed & house his family; while he's getting NOTHING due to his disability denials ...heart breaking. 
I suffered greatly but at least it was just 'ME' without having a family to depend upon my income, or the lack there of.  And at my worst, my mother had just died so she wasn't aware of my sudden decline in mobility and thought processes. 
Life - it can be a sudden departure from what we expect; just from the tiniest pin point of a insect bite.  I do not take such things for granted ANYMORE! Sad
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Re: Hang on a minute.

Post by Shady2 on Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:25 pm

Aspca4ever wrote:
Shady2 wrote:
Aspca4ever wrote:
Well, poop ...there's some grand posting over there.  I'll see if my search options still work and C & P some of those links & posts I'd used over here.  It will be later though.

Oh, well - about me!  Got bit by a pen head sized deer tick in 2014 {wedged between by toes} and within a couple of weeks I'd contracted Lyme's and the rest is a horrid history of medical applications of medicines and therapies to modify how restrictive my mobility was going to keep me!  I still have reoccurrence of extremity pain & mobility issues that make ya wanna SLAP YO MOMMA or KICK THE DOGS!  I'm being ironic as I would never do either, but that's just how bad the joint & bone pain comes roaring back to life. 
But 'I've Come A Long Way Baby' and I'm not confined into a wheel chair - moved on from my walker - have left my 2 canes behind and now have to use the #1 walking stick for support - when my hands are behaving.  LOL
That was more than you wanted to know, but it's what I'm proud of and how far this Lyme's has taken me and what I've climbed out of. 
I wont' be completely done with it ...once this blood borne invasive bastard hits the blood stream/attacks the joints & bone connecting areas - finds all of those places you've used & abuse in your youth: it will make you contemplate other options for life ending situations instead of tipping the PAIN PILL BOTTLE up and taking a few more pills. 
It loves to just hang around and find a warm place to dwell and then 'SURPRISE' ...I'm still here, just thought I'd pop up and make this day a really horrible reminder that you aren't rid of me yet!  Twisted Evil

Good afternoon Aspca4ever.

Sorry to learn of your medical condition & I hope the pain eases & you make the fullest of recoveries.
TY, kind sir; I'm so far recovered from 3 years ago and 85% better than even last year at this time ...but each day - each barometric sudden change brings about a renewed surge of reminders and then that engages my brain fog and I want to go hibernate for a while.  LOL
I've just begun a correspondence with a young 37yr old man that is going through what I did early on and he's got a young family; can't tell you what the horror of my suck face Gov. & his budget cutting our states benefits & that even crueler 'Agent Orange' does to people like this guy! 
Trying to find resources to help him - feed & house his family; while he's getting NOTHING due to his disability denials ...heart breaking. 
I suffered greatly but at least it was just 'ME' without having a family to depend upon my income, or the lack there of.  And at my worst, my mother had just died so she wasn't aware of my sudden decline in mobility and thought processes. 
Life - it can be a sudden departure from what we expect; just from the tiniest pin point of a insect bite.  I do not take such things for granted ANYMORE! Sad

Can you make full recovery from Lymes disease?
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Re: Hang on a minute.

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