South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

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South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:29 pm

01 March 2017

If you see a beautiful piece of land, take it, says Malema. No, says Parliament, use the law.

"The ANC's Phumuzile Ngwenya-Mabila strongly opposed Malema's call, and said expropriation without compensation was unconstitutional and not in line with ANC policy

Ngwenya-Mabila said the party totally rejected the motion, saying expropriation of land should be done in the public interest, and not for EFF political interests.

"We need to respect and uphold the Constitution as citizens of this country and members of this House," she said.

"We are not going to be told what to do. We are not in an alliance with anyone else."

She agreed that the land reform process was slow. She said the willing-buyer, willing-seller model resulted in inflated prices for the state.

The current law, expropriation with compensation, takes into account the current use of land, the history of acquisition, the market value of property, the extent of state investment, and capital improvement of the property.

Deputy Minister of Public Works Jeremy Cronin said the ANC agreed during Codesa negotiations in the 1990s that "unconstitutional deprivation" must never happen again to anyone in the country, to applause from the ANC MPs.

He said the ANC needs to implement land reform better, within the confines of the Constitution."


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.za/2017/02/28/parliament-votes-261-to-33-against-land-grabs/

Malema and his EFF party have no mandate to do anything and Zuma will find out just like Trump did that the constitution rules and if necessary the courts will decide the level of compensation

“Expropriation must be subjected to just and equitable compensation as indicated in section 25 subsection 2 (b) of the constitution. The amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by the court.

As it stands, section 25 subsection 2 and 3 of the constitution says that:

Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application—

(a) for a public purpose or in the public interest; and

(b) subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court.

(3) The amount of the compensation and the time and manner of payment must be just and equitable, reflecting an equitable balance between the public interest and the interests of those affected, having regard to all relevant circumstances, including—

(a) the current use of the property;

(b) the history of the acquisition and use of the property;

(c) the market value of the property;

(d) the extent of direct state investment and subsidy in the acquisition and beneficial capital improvement of the property; and

(e) the purpose of the expropriation.

She said that the Expropriation Bill would take care of the issue of expropriated land being sold for too much , as the amount paid would be determined by the Valuer-General. But compensation was essential to remain in line with the constitution


http://citizen.co.za/news/news-national/1442435/anc-totally-rejects-malemas-6-offer-for-land-expropriation/
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Sassy on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:06 pm

Seems South Africa has better rules in place than Israel, land theft has become a full time occupation for them.
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:12 pm

Perhaps the barbaric palastinians should stop killing gay people?

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Sassy on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:15 pm

Perhaps you didn't know that in three gay pride marches in Israel over the last few years, people have been killed by Jews?
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:18 pm

Catman, you should know that all the rights that the Gay community got in this country came from Labour against fierce opposition from the Tories who couldn't even muster a majority within their MPs to pass anything....FACT
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:20 pm

Irn Bru wrote:Catman, you should know that all the rights that the Gay community got in this country came from Labour against fierce opposition from the Tories who couldn't even muster a majority within their MPs to pass anything....FACT

Blair government.

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:22 pm

Sassy wrote:Perhaps you didn't know that in three gay pride marches in Israel over the last few years, people have been killed by Jews?

But atleast they have gay pride marches. Not like the murders of gay people on the streets of the gaza strip.

Fank Fook!

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Sassy on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:23 pm

What murder of gays on the streets of Gaza? As I have friends in Gaza that a gay, I'm dying to know.
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:24 pm

I'll be frank.

The Palastinain issue is as boring as fuck to me. They are a bunch of extremists akin to ISIS.

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Sassy on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:25 pm

Last week, in an article on the controversial rainbow flag mural a Palestinian artist painted on Israel’s apartheid wall, the Associated Press made this claim: “A 1951 Jordanian law banning homosexual acts remains in effect in the West Bank, as does a ban in Gaza passed by British authorities in 1936.”

In fact, there is no law in the West Bank, or in Jordan, that bans sexual relations between consenting adults of the same sex.

Yesterday, several days after I contacted AP to inform them of this, they issued the following correction:

In a story June 30 about Palestinian protesters whitewashing a gay pride rainbow flag, The Associated Press reported erroneously that homosexual acts are banned by law in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. While homosexuality is largely taboo in Palestinian society, there are no laws specifically banning homosexual acts.

This may surprise people, since the notion that homosexual activity is criminal – and even punishable by death – is a staple of a form of anti-Palestinian propaganda called pinkwashing.

Pinkwashing is a rhetorical strategy that deploys Israel’s supposed enlightenment toward LGBTQ issues to deflect criticism from Israel’s human rights abuses and war crimes and to seek to build up support for Israel among Western liberals and progressives.

In a 2 July email, I pointed AP editors to the annual publication State-Sponsored Homophobia, from international LGBTQ advocacy group ILGA. Its 2014 edition states (emphasis added):

The British Mandate Criminal Code Ordinance, No. 74 of 1936 is in force in Gaza.

Section 152(2) of the Code criminalizes sexual acts between men with a penalty of up to 10 years.

This Code was in force also in Jordan until 1951 and in Israel until 1977, before they adopted their own Penal Codes. Note that in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), however, the Jordanian Penal Code of 1951, largely modified in 1960, is in force, having no prohibition on sexual acts between persons of the same sex.

AP editors were initially skeptical and pushed back, insisting that various clauses in the Jordanian Penal Code that applies in the occupied West Bank indirectly outlawed homosexual activity.

I’m glad that after they delved deeper into the matter, they have done the right thing and made a correction.
Expert views

The AP’s mistake also led me to look deeper into the issue.

I asked two experts for some background on the law in Jordan as well as the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and the kinds of claims made about it.

Anis F. Kassim is one of the foremost experts on international, Jordanian and Palestinian law and long-time editor-in-chief of the Palestinian Yearbook of International Law. He was also an adviser to the Palestinian legal team in the successful 2004 case against Israel’s wall in the West Bank at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

Kassim confirmed that the Jordanian Penal Code “is silent on acts committed by adults of the same sex with their own respective free will.” But I also wanted to know if any other clauses, not explicitly mentioning homosexual activity, had been used to target people who engage in such activity.

“Having checked the reported cases – as published – and with the old and young practitioners, I have not found any court case involving homosexuality,” Kassim told me.

As regards the 1936 law still in force in Gaza, Kassim said that it “could be interpreted as allowing homosexuality.” But he noted that such acts in Gaza would potentially be “punishable if the act was committed by force against the victim. By implication, if it is committed with free will of the victim it may not be a criminal act.”
“Chain of fabrications”

I also spoke with Joseph Massad, the foremost academic authority on Jordan who has written the classic book on the country Colonial Effects: The Making of National Identity in Jordan. Massad is also author of Desiring Arabs and Islam in Liberalism.

Massad says that the original, incorrect AP report “is part of the more generalized racist campaign by Western pro-Israel news organizations that want to insist on pinkwashing Israeli crimes with the added benefit of propagandizing against neighboring Arab countries.”

He observes that ILGA itself “used to be part of such propaganda efforts, claiming without evidence” in the 1993 edition of its annual Pink Book that Jordan criminalized homosexuality.

“It seems the Associated Press was simply repeating such propaganda and might very likely have relied directly on it, not having updated its sources,” Massad states.

Massad says that ILGA’s website later corrected the mistake, “by referring to a mostly ignorant Orientalist book written by a German and an Israeli collaborator – even if in this one case the authors got the story right – rather than by referring to the actual text of the law.”

The bigger point, he says, is that since “Western propaganda is based on a chain of propagandistic fabrications, you end up getting [organizations like] AP quoting ILGA quoting other German and Israeli sources. What is always absent is an actual Arab documentary source.”

Massad notes that, as in the AP story, “the law itself is never quoted nor is a history of its case application even explored, but rather what is presented is anti-Arab propaganda buttressed by any opinion that would help the AP Jerusalem bureau prove Israel’s superiority over the Arabs.”

The 1936 British Mandate criminal code for Palestine makes it illegal for men to have sex with women or men in a way that “contravenes natural laws.” That law remained in effect in Israel until 1977, in contrast with Jordanian law that did not criminalize such acts at all.

Yet, Massad observes, “we never read stories by AP and other Western news organizations between 1951 and 1977 about how retrograde and repressive Israel was toward homosexuals compared to its Arab neighbors, including the West Bank before and after Israel occupied it. This could very well be because the US and Western Europe also repressed their homosexuals during this period.”

“Who knows?” Massad observes dryly, “Maybe Israeli homosexuals fled to the West Bank between 1967 and 1977 to avoid prosecution in Israel.”

“But after Israel replaced the law in 1977, not only does AP not contrast it negatively with its Jordanian and Palestinian neighbors who had not criminalized such acts for decades before Israel,” he says, “but AP fabricates a story to make Israel look superior to both of them.”
No asylum

Even the corrected story still asserts that “Gay Palestinians tend to be secretive about their social lives and some have crossed into Israel to live safely.” This claim, often based on unverifiable anecdotes, is also a staple of Israeli pinkwashing.

But a 2008 Tel Aviv University study of the handful of known cases – “Nowhere to Run: Gay Palestinian Asylum-Seekers in Israel” – found that Israel subjects Palestinians to particularly atrocious treatment, expelling them precisely because they are Palestinian. There is no legal framework that allows any Palestinian to seek asylum in present-day Israel.

Israel’s foundational laws and policies are designed precisely to keep Palestinians out, as they are considered a “demographic threat.”

Massad says it is worth asking how the “error” was committed in the first place, “and how the news organization initially came to decide that there was an anti-homosexual law in Jordan and the West Bank where none existed.”

“Indeed, AP, the largest and perhaps the richest news organization in the world, has consultants and fact checkers that often check claims made by those who oppose US and Israeli policies,” he states, “but it seems little is made of their expertise when it comes to endorsing US and Israeli propaganda, and it had to be left to The Electronic Intifada to alert them.”

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/ap-corrects-story-falsely-claiming-homosexuality-illegal-palestinians
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:28 pm

Sassy wrote:What murder of gays on the streets of Gaza?   As I have friends in Gaza that a gay, I'm dying to know.



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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Sassy on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:30 pm

Catman wrote:I'll be frank.

The Palastinain issue is as boring as fuck to me. They are a bunch of extremists akin to ISIS.


Don't be ridiculous. They ought to be extremist having been occupied for so long, denied their rights, their houses pulled down in the middle of the night, their land stolen, their children killed, their water taken, their olive trees burnt, but over and over again they say, We love Life and Love will Never Die in the face of unrelenting terrorism from Israel. That fact is supported by the Jewish Peace groups who painstakingly log every crime the Israeli Government and the IDF commit against the Palestinians, men, women, children and tiny babies. After all, where else in the world can you burn a baby and his family to death and just get six months?
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:31 pm

Catman, you do know that gay people that go to Israel from Palestine are sent straight back, don't you?
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:35 pm

DON'T CRY FOR ME
Tel Aviv’s Last LGBTQ Bar, Evita, Closes Its Doors For Good

https://www.queerty.com/tel-avivs-last-lgbtq-bar-evita-closes-doors-good-20160801
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:36 pm

Catman wrote:



Thankfully, the nasty videos have now been removed from youtube.

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:37 pm

Catman, this thread is about South Africa. If you have issues with Palestinians take it to another thread.
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:43 pm

Sassy wrote:Seems South Africa has better rules in place than Israel, land theft has become a full time occupation for them.

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Irn Bru on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:46 pm


They're obviously not aware that it's shut now. Now like I said this thread is about South Africa so put any new posts in a thread about Gays in Palestine or Israel in that.
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:48 pm

Irn Bru wrote:

They're obviously not aware that it's shut now. Now like I said this thread is about South Africa so put any new posts in a thread about Gays in Palestine or Israel in that.

There is more than one!

https://www.travelgayeurope.com/tel-aviv-gay-bars/

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:49 pm

Irn Bru wrote:

They're obviously not aware that it's shut now. Now like I said this thread is about South Africa so put any new posts in a thread about Gays in Palestine or Israel in that.

Split it then?

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Sassy on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:49 pm

It's heartening to see that a young democracy like South Africa had the sense to put rules in place to stop land theft, even when a President says it's ok!
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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:58 pm

Sassy wrote:It's heartening to see that a young democracy like South Africa had the sense to put rules in place to stop land theft, even when a President says it's ok!

There is a new democratic party over there that has unseated the ANC in places like Cape Town etc...

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Re: South Africa - Parliament Votes 261 To 33 Against Expropriation Without Compensation

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:01 pm

....Since we are visiting later this year i've been doing some homework.

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