We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

View previous topic View next topic Go down

We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:52 pm

Sassy wrote:

They can,  providing the the entrepeners realise that those doing the work for them contribute to their wealth and they pay their bloody tax!
Not only pay their taxes, but understand the importance of paying their taxes.

Britain has given you the opportunity to succeed, now share the rewards of that!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Sassy on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:54 pm

Exactly, society cannot function properly for the good of all unless they do.

_________________
“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-
Shake your chains to earth like
dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many-they are few.”


Percy Bysshe Shelley  The Masque of Anarchy


"The Labour Party is a moral crusade - or it is nothing " - Harold Wilson
avatar
Sassy
Senior Member

Posts : 987
Join date : 2014-08-06

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:54 pm

Catman wrote:

...No banning of lefties on sight! Laughing
Your point of view is more valid and of greater importance than its ever been, we're a modern progressive society or we are nothing!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:56 pm

Sassy wrote:Exactly, society cannot function properly for the good of all unless they do.
And that should be enough, to achieve success and share in the glory!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by victorismyhero on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:22 pm

and...what use is "success" and "glory"...that doesnt put food on the table, pay for a trip of a lifetime and allow one to retire in comfort at 50...and those who "do" in entrepreneurial terms expect the benefits due...

or are you saying EVERYONE or alternatively NO-ONE should have a luxury yacht/car/watch etc?

lets wander into a little thought experiment

in a fit of super cognitive excess, you invent the mythical "force field, which can be deployed either as a personal shield OR as a super giant economy version capable of protecting vast areas of territory... and its actually dead easy to build (kinda DIY easy)

now

do you attempt to sell it to YOUR govt, after all it would make soldiers.cops etc invulnerable, not to mention the country as a whole in case of attack
OR
do you sell it to the highest bidder
OR

do you publish it openly so ALL can make them
OR
do you keep the idea for yourself, and use it to your own benefit (whether that be by fair means or foul)

of course any dealings with any govt would be dangerous...the likeyhood is that your idea would be "acquired" and you yourself would be found to have commited suicide in a convenient field


avatar
victorismyhero
sael curunithron
sael curunithron

Posts : 2401
Join date : 2011-02-15
Location : cheshire

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Sassy on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:26 pm

Tell you what, really interesting, but start a new thread would you, would like the welcome thread to stay as that even though it has wandered somewhat!

_________________
“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-
Shake your chains to earth like
dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many-they are few.”


Percy Bysshe Shelley  The Masque of Anarchy


"The Labour Party is a moral crusade - or it is nothing " - Harold Wilson
avatar
Sassy
Senior Member

Posts : 987
Join date : 2014-08-06

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by victorismyhero on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:30 pm

snip it out and make a new thread with this one (above ) as the O/P
avatar
victorismyhero
sael curunithron
sael curunithron

Posts : 2401
Join date : 2011-02-15
Location : cheshire

Back to top Go down

We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are intedependent

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:32 pm

victorismyhero wrote:and...what use is "success" and "glory"...that doesnt put food on the table, pay for a trip of a lifetime and allow one to retire in comfort at 50...and those who "do" in entrepreneurial terms expect the benefits due...

or are you saying EVERYONE or alternatively NO-ONE should have a luxury yacht/car/watch etc?

lets wander into a little thought experiment

in a fit of super cognitive excess, you invent the mythical "force field, which can be deployed either as a personal shield OR as a super giant economy version capable of protecting vast areas of territory... and its actually dead easy to build (kinda DIY easy)

now

do you attempt to sell it to YOUR govt, after all it would make soldiers.cops etc invulnerable, not to mention the country as a whole in case of attack
OR
do you sell it to the highest bidder
OR

do you publish it openly so ALL can make them
OR
do you keep the idea for yourself, and use it to your own benefit (whether that be by fair means or foul)

of course any dealings with any govt would be dangerous...the likeyhood is that your idea would be "acquired" and you yourself would be found to have commited suicide in a convenient field


A close friend I grew up with went through an event that caused some considerable trauma, this trauma lasted until a few years ago, 30 years of trauma then he died from a drug overdose, when he was alive people often commented how Lucky he was to receive state aid, some even said he was a scrounger, a close family relative remarked on his good fortune.

How much is such trauma worth?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Sassy on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:46 pm

Those people who said he was lucky should have been made to live his life for at least a month. Such people make me bloody furious.

_________________
“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-
Shake your chains to earth like
dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many-they are few.”


Percy Bysshe Shelley  The Masque of Anarchy


"The Labour Party is a moral crusade - or it is nothing " - Harold Wilson
avatar
Sassy
Senior Member

Posts : 987
Join date : 2014-08-06

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:48 pm

Sassy wrote:Those people who said he was lucky should have been made to live his life for at least a month.   Such people make me bloody furious.
Exactly, I would rather have my health of mind, body and soul than any financial reward, it is the failing of many RW to appreciate this.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Sassy on Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:52 pm

Without your health, all the rest is useless.

_________________
“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-
Shake your chains to earth like
dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many-they are few.”


Percy Bysshe Shelley  The Masque of Anarchy


"The Labour Party is a moral crusade - or it is nothing " - Harold Wilson
avatar
Sassy
Senior Member

Posts : 987
Join date : 2014-08-06

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by victorismyhero on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:01 pm

A sad thing to happen scrat to be sure.

but I'm not sure of the relevence to the point i posed?????

the reason I'm not sure of the relevence is

many many people undergo quite substantial trauma at some point in their lives, for any number of reasons, and the "damage" done by that is a very individual thing. the questions I would ask are, was the state aid the "right sort of aid" or do you mean merely financial aid....If so there should be no "luck" involved ..NOR would he be a scrounger.

was the trauma sustained "in service" as it were? If it was, PERSONALLY I would say the least he should have got was the current rate of pay for his grade...
but then you have to ask how you deal with those traumatised by other things, bearing in mind that the depth of trauma suffered is purely down to the individual, what may severely and disablingly traumatise one person may leave another almost untouched



avatar
victorismyhero
sael curunithron
sael curunithron

Posts : 2401
Join date : 2011-02-15
Location : cheshire

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by victorismyhero on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:06 pm

I think you are missing the point....

I'm not on about whether those who make plenty of money should or should not pay the due taxes

what I am challenging is the idea that sassy promoted that "success and glory" are (or should be) the driving factors behind inventiveness and indeed personal financial risk in some cases
after all, as has been pointed out....without health even success and glory are pretty damn meaningless....

avatar
victorismyhero
sael curunithron
sael curunithron

Posts : 2401
Join date : 2011-02-15
Location : cheshire

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:19 pm

victorismyhero wrote:A sad thing to happen scrat to be sure.

but I'm not sure of the relevence to the point i posed?????

the reason I'm not sure of the relevence is

many many people undergo quite substantial trauma at some point in their lives, for any number of reasons, and the "damage" done by that is a very individual thing. the questions I would ask are, was the state aid the "right sort of aid" or do you mean merely financial aid....If so there should be no "luck" involved ..NOR would he be a scrounger.

was the trauma sustained "in service" as it were? If it was, PERSONALLY I would say the least he should have got was the current rate of pay for his grade...
but then you have to ask how you deal with those traumatised by other things, bearing in mind that the depth of trauma suffered is purely down to the individual, what may severely and disablingly traumatise one person may leave another almost untouched



The relevance is obvious, life is special, life is unique, some people can deal with trauma, some people are blessed with a moral flexibility shaped by environmental causes that simply comes to terms with traumatic situations, can function in such an environment and can mentally quantify it and spirituality justify it and,,,,,,some cannot!

Any advantage you gain from this life should be appreciated, ambition should be rewarded with some financial success, but not at the price of a riven society, if you set out without ambition you'll never succeed, everyone should be given the oppurtunity to succeed, in any field at any level,,however, fascism and RW ideology restricts this to the eugenically modified few, to hereditary wealth and privilege, this is incestious, unnatural, and regressive.

From the many come the few!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Sassy on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:22 pm

Where the hell did I say that?    Of course someone who starts something should be rewarded.   However, anyone who starts something, unless they do every bit of the work themselves, is dependent on people working for them.   They cannot succeed withoout the workers and the workers contribution should also be recognised.   They are interdependent.   Nobody is saying that the person who came up with the idea and pushed it through should not get a bigger slice of the cake, but from that cake they should pay their fair taxes and the workers should be paid a wage that they can live on, not just survive.
avatar
Sassy
Senior Member

Posts : 987
Join date : 2014-08-06

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by victorismyhero on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:36 pm

scrat wrote:
The relevance is obvious, life is special, life is unique, some people can deal with trauma, some people are blessed with a moral flexibility shaped by environmental causes that simply comes to terms with traumatic situations, can function in such an environment  and can mentally quantify it and spirituality justify it and,,,,,,some cannot!

Any advantage you gain from this life should be appreciated, ambition should be rewarded with some financial success, but not at the price of a riven society, if you set out without ambition you'll never succeed, everyone should be given the oppurtunity to succeed, in any field at any level,,however, fascism and RW ideology restricts this to the eugenically modified few, to hereditary wealth and privilege, this is incestious, unnatural, and regressive.

From the many come the few!

"ambition should be rewarded with some financial success, but not at the price of a riven society"

that is true, however defining "limits" to this is almost impossible, In truth the man with 2p more will always be considered "privilidged" by the man with 2p less. I suppose that the problem is of course that the difference has gotten ridiculous, to the point where the "haves" share is now impacting in a greater detrimental manner on the have nots, and moreover the level of greed is such that the "haves" resent the principle of "from those who have to those who need". Moreover society now is predicated on a form of consumerism that firstly make folks "guilty" for not having enough, and THEN further loads on that guilt for not affording "the latest thing" I know plenty of folks who "must" have the newest phone on the market...and buy a different one every few months Rolling Eyes mine I've had for 3 years...and only changed it because I dropped my last one 45 foot out of a tree I was topping out.....and it found the only rock for 5 miles around.....

I would consider the best way to deal with part of the problem would be to set a cap on the wage differential between the "ceo" or whatever and the bog cleaner....say 20-30 times.....which would result in either sensibly paid CEO's OR very well paid bog cleaners....



avatar
victorismyhero
sael curunithron
sael curunithron

Posts : 2401
Join date : 2011-02-15
Location : cheshire

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by victorismyhero on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:37 pm

Sassy wrote:Where the hell did I say that?    Of course someone who starts something should be rewarded.   However, anyone who starts something, unless they do every bit of the work themselves, is dependent on people working for them.   They cannot succeed withoout the workers and the workers contribution should also be recognised.   They are interdependent.   Nobody is saying that the person who came up with the idea and pushed it through should not get a bigger slice of the cake, but from that cake they should pay their fair taxes and the workers should be paid a wage that they can live on, not just survive.


well..you wont get any argument from me about that.....
avatar
victorismyhero
sael curunithron
sael curunithron

Posts : 2401
Join date : 2011-02-15
Location : cheshire

Back to top Go down

Why 'Regean-anomic's Failed' ...giving tax cuts to the top 10%

Post by Aspca4ever on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:48 pm

Because the method for 'buying' elections in the USA = power brokering to the wealthiest among the American population, naturally the elected {or ones running for elections} are vying for those $$$ backer's and as Ronald Reagan did for his cronies' and the upper echelon received their tax cuts/loop holes/deductions out the WAZOOOO!
None of their profits filtered back down to the failing infrastructure and the hard pressed middle class that have been paying their fair share of 'ALL' the tax burden since those golden days of Reagan dynasty.

By Amy Chozick   May. 2, 2016  Political News, Now
Warren Buffett Endorses Hillary Clinton and Calls for Higher Taxes on Wealthy
Mr. Buffett began his remarks at an event in Omaha with some stark statistics. In 1992, the top 400 wage earners in the United States made an average of $48.6 million each, compared with $335.7 million in 2012, Mr. Buffett said, using the most recent statistics available based on income tax returns.

“This group,” which includes Mr. Buffett, who is worth an estimated $66.7 billion, “had their income increase sevenfold,” he said, adding, however, that “their tax rate has fallen to 16.3 percent, so they got a one-third tax cut as their income went up 7 to 1.”
https://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/12/16/warren-buffett-endorses-hillary-clinton-and-calls-for-higher-taxes-on-wealthy/
But the 'cast' was set and the mold was followed by many a predecessor and the abject horror of this repeated method for allowing those that should be paying their 'FAIR SHARE' have been given the most tax credits/loop holes and ability to dump their gross profits into off shore accounts and away from the prying eyes of the IRS. 
And they just keep buying election power and hanging onto their tax credits/loop holes and that's what POTUS #45 has bragged so glaringly about.  "I've not paid taxes in 20+ years" and he was still able to file 6 bankruptcy's {4 personal & 2 corporate bankruptcy} during that time frame. 
Gee, how many infrastructures - veterans benefits - Social Security accounts - SNAP program cuts could have benefitted from just some of the 'King of Tweets' fair share of those 20+ years of taxes ???  who knows, but he's still hiding his forms! 
If we could ever redefine a 'FAIR TAX BRACKET' based upon actual earnings for the working poor - a 'FAIR & EQUAL TAX BRACKET' for the upper echelon so that they do pay for the right to utilize the same infrastructure that all of the middle class does - IF - IF - IF. 
Long passed due for this to be changed.  IMO
avatar
Aspca4ever
Established Member

Posts : 257
Join date : 2017-02-16
Age : 63
Location : heartland of America - FlintHills of Kansas

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Sassy on Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:58 pm

Simply cannot understand why they haven't demanded his tax returns. How the hell can they know if he is being influenced through his businesses if they don't know where his money is coming from?

_________________
“Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number-
Shake your chains to earth like
dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you
Ye are many-they are few.”


Percy Bysshe Shelley  The Masque of Anarchy


"The Labour Party is a moral crusade - or it is nothing " - Harold Wilson
avatar
Sassy
Senior Member

Posts : 987
Join date : 2014-08-06

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Aspca4ever on Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:21 am

Sassy wrote:Simply cannot understand why they haven't demanded his tax returns.   How the hell can they know if he is being influenced through his businesses if they don't know where his money is coming from?
What our Repug's have become ...if the scandal can't be about the Democrats {preferably HRC} then they just can't be arsed into giving a rats-ass about what they've elected to screw over this great nation!
avatar
Aspca4ever
Established Member

Posts : 257
Join date : 2017-02-16
Age : 63
Location : heartland of America - FlintHills of Kansas

Back to top Go down

Re: We need entrepeneurs and workes, and they are interdependent

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:12 am

victorismyhero wrote:

"ambition should be rewarded with some financial success, but not at the price of a riven society"

that is true, however defining "limits" to this is almost impossible, In truth the man with 2p more will always be considered "privilidged" by the man with 2p less. I suppose that the problem is of course that the difference has gotten ridiculous, to the point where the "haves" share is now impacting in a greater detrimental manner on the have nots, and moreover the level of greed is such that the "haves" resent the principle of "from those who have to those who need". Moreover society now is predicated on a form of consumerism that firstly make folks "guilty" for not having enough, and THEN further loads on that guilt for not affording "the latest thing"  I know plenty of folks who "must" have the newest phone on the market...and buy a different one every few months  Rolling Eyes mine I've had for 3 years...and only changed it because I dropped my last one 45 foot out of a tree I was topping out.....and it found the only rock for 5 miles around.....

I would consider the best way to deal with part of the problem would be to set a cap on the wage differential between the "ceo" or whatever and the bog cleaner....say 20-30 times.....which would result in either sensibly paid CEO's OR very well paid bog cleaners....



Our economy must be centred around benefitting all of society, capital infrastructure projects, energy, transport networks and future proof industries must be undertaken to maintain our position as an entrepreneurial and decent society.

We are told this cannot be achieved, we're told it would cost too much, we're phased to believe that financial markets can only succeed if greed is rewarded.

Everyone should be healthy, educated to their best ability and offered an opportunity, fund the NHS, fund Education, fund technological advances and build a new manufacturing base. Everyone must have access to water, food and shelter, utilities need to be state owned to achieve the effect of providing clean water and energy, British argriculture needs to sustain 65million people, this is currently impossible, trade deals need to be undertaken to achieve this at least until a home grown automated dietary solution can be found. There are over 600,000 empty homes, one home is enough for everyone, encourage building projects.

We now have a party leader who promotes this ideology and I find myself agreeing with much of what he says, I don't care if Jeremy Corbyn spoke to the IRA or Hamas, we know that he spoke to them about peace, he didn't speak to them with a trade delegation of arms dealers rubbing their hands in bloody glee baaying with appreciation..

We must begin to understand that our remit is to figure out a way to leave this planet and colonise the stars, the sooner we get on with that the better, I see no other reason for us being here, it is what every earth bound species strives for.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum