F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

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F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:29 pm

The announcement on a decision to revert to the F35B is being predicted quite soon as the first F35B makes it maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Correct decision but it should never have come to this.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?prod=134467&shop=dae&modele=release
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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:25 pm

had the previous government gone for cat and trap from the beginning then there would have been no problem and a variety of aircraft could have been flown from our carriers. As it is the only plane capable of landing will be the F35b and some helicopters. No refuelling planes, no awacs. I suppose the previous government may have had an inkling they were going to run out of money.

whether we will be able to afford the F35 is still questionable as it seems to be suffering massive cost overruns.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-proposes-cost-cutting-measure-to-us-on-f-35-project.aspx?PageID=238&NID=18584&NewsCatID=344

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:53 pm

In A Flap wrote:had the previous government gone for cat and trap from the beginning then there would have been no problem and a variety of aircraft could have been flown from our carriers. As it is the only plane capable of landing will be the F35b and some helicopters. No refuelling planes, no awacs. I suppose the previous government may have had an inkling they were going to run out of money.

whether we will be able to afford the F35 is still questionable as it seems to be suffering massive cost overruns.

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-proposes-cost-cutting-measure-to-us-on-f-35-project.aspx?PageID=238&NID=18584&NewsCatID=344

The cat & trap option was always wrong as the F35C didn't offer anything much more than what the F35B could do in terms of operational effectiveness. It can operate in conditions that the F35C can't and it can run more operational sorties within a given time frame and it supports amphibious operations more effectively. Open sea battle groups are history and also we don't have enough escort ships to support that sort of warfare.

French aircraft can't fly off them anyway.
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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:18 pm

Irn Bru wrote:

The cat & trap option was always wrong as the F35C didn't offer anything much more than what the F35B could do in terms of operational effectiveness. It can operate in conditions that the F35C can't and it can run more operational sorties within a given time frame and it supports amphibious operations more effectively. Open sea battle groups are history and also we don't have enough escort ships to support that sort of warfare.

French aircraft can't fly off them anyway.

the only aircraft that can fly from the current design is the F35b. Had they gone for a full cat and trap design from the beginning, not a redesign of the current part built ships then different aircraft could have flown from it.
Have you seen what fly from american carriers. it is not just one aircraft type, it is entire strike packages. AWACS, refuelling, the whole 9 yards.
That seems to be a point that was missed by the previous government when deciding what sort of ship we needed.
The F35 if they ever get it deployed is a fine aircraft. But should it need replacing we will have to develop another Vstol aircraft. This is again nothing but a glorified through deck cruiser.
If we wanted to do it on the cheap I am sure america would have flogged us some older nuclear powered carriers and flight wings. The latest variant of the F18 is a great plane.

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:34 pm

In A Flap wrote:

the only aircraft that can fly from the current design is the F35b. Had they gone for a full cat and trap design from the beginning, not a redesign of the current part built ships then different aircraft could have flown from it.
Have you seen what fly from american carriers. it is not just one aircraft type, it is entire strike packages. AWACS, refuelling, the whole 9 yards.
That seems to be a point that was missed by the previous government when deciding what sort of ship we needed.
The F35 if they ever get it deployed is a fine aircraft. But should it need replacing we will have to develop another Vstol aircraft. This is again nothing but a glorified through deck cruiser.
If we wanted to do it on the cheap I am sure america would have flogged us some older nuclear powered carriers and flight wings. The latest variant of the F18 is a great plane.

We don't have the luxury of being able to buy a variety of aircraft to operate from a carrier. and we never have had Awacs and long range aircraft to spy from the sky don't need to operate from a carrier. The world and the open seas are much smaller in terms of aerial cover and sea going vessels, and jets operating from land bases and carriers is a much more potent force than crowding them all on the deck of a carrier.

The F35b is the correct option and you will have seen how effective the Harriers were used by the USMC in operating from their carriers in the Med during the Libya operation.

Actually, the cat and trap option was the original choice but it was changed and it was the MoD that decided that and they are happy that the decision which this government made is likely to be changed back again. It's not certain that it will be but it looks more than likely that it will.

It was in the Times a few days ago.

Edit:

BTW what's the point of having nuclear carriers?
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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:40 pm

once again it appears labour and you have got things disatourously wrong on defence issues.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9217918/Fighter-jets-about-turn-will-harm-capability.html

labour decided on the F35b version on a cost basis not a military basis. they designed the wrong carrier for the wrong aircraft.

I see that some people are saying the prime minister is suffering a humiliating uturn because they are going back to the F35b, but if labour had requested a real aircraft carrier design in the first place we could have had a plane with all the capabilities needed for future operations.

it was labour that got it wrong on this project from its very inception.
A more expensive less capable plane in order to do a carrier on the cheap.
We have had through deck cruisers for 3 decades, we were told we were getting carriers, we are not, we are getting bigger through deck cruisers.




The MoD document, marked “Secret – UK eyes only”, makes clear that the jump jets are both more expensive and not as militarily effective as those originally ordered. “The conventional variant is more effective than the jump jet in almost all cases,” the paper states.




Last edited by In A Flap on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:41 pm

the point with nuclear carriers is that they do not need to be refuelled on extended operations.

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:07 pm

In A Flap wrote:once again it appears labour and you have got things disatourously wrong on defence issues.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9217918/Fighter-jets-about-turn-will-harm-capability.html

labour decided on the F35b version on a cost basis not a military basis. they designed the wrong carrier for the wrong aircraft.

I see that some people are saying the prime minister is suffering a humiliating uturn because they are going back to the F35b, but if labour had requested a real aircraft carrier design in the first place we could have had a plane with all the capabilities needed for future operations.

it was labour that got it wrong on this project from its very inception.
A more expensive less capable plane in order to do a carrier on the cheap.
We have had through deck cruisers for 3 decades, we were told we were getting carriers, we are not, we are getting bigger through deck cruisers.

The MoD document, marked “Secret – UK eyes only”, makes clear that the jump jets are both more expensive and not as militarily effective as those originally ordered. “The conventional variant is more effective than the jump jet in almost all cases,” the paper states.


Well now your starting to believe your own publicity because the last time we had a discussion on defence you were jumping about all over a forum telling everyone that the Typhoon couldn't do a ground attack and drop bombs and they wouldn't be able to do that until around 2018. You were basing that on newspaper articles and a report from the National Audit Office but I told you they were wrong because the Typhoon could do a ground attack and launch bombs - and what happened just a few weeks later? Yep - the Typhoon did launch a ground attack and delivered bombs on Libyan targets with pinpoint accuracy. Remember now? Of course you do.

And here you are again jumping in with reports from a newspaper that has selected extracts from something published by the Defence Science and Technical Laboratory (they're being cut as well) which may well be based on data on the F35B that is out of date. Latest data on operational effectiveness has shown that the nautical radius differences between the two aircraft is narrowing. And they appear to have discounted all the advantages that the F35B brings to the battlefield and the risks involved in buying the F35C and the limitations on its capabilities. And I see this in the newspaper report

The MoD said no decision had been made on switching to the jump jet, and played down the paper’s findings. A spokesman said: “As you would expect, the MoD works up a wide range of scenarios, many of which are highly unlikely, to scope contingency work as fully as possible.” He added: “The Government has been clear that UK combat operations in Afghanistan will cease by the end of 2014.”

And in the article I linked to in the OP they said this:

The combat and mission systems of the 'jump jet' version of the F-35 are almost identical to the carrier variant.

And in case you didn't know, the F35C still hasn't managed to take off and land on a carrier due to technical problems that are causing serious concerns within the DoD that may well end up with the carrier variant requiring serious major modifications or maybe even the axe. At the last test there were 8 attempts at a landing and the hook failed to catch the trap every single time.

Tell you what, I'll leave you in the hands of Ed Timberlake (a man who realy knows what he's talking about and knows all about this aircraft). He will tell you why the F35B is the correct choice. Here's the link and here's his bio:

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-uk-rethinks-the-f-35c-decision-shaping-a-british-led-expeditionary-strike-group/

Ed Timberlake - Military Experience:
Marine Fighter Pilot, and Commanding Officer of VMFA-321, a reserve USMC Fighter Squadron, I graduated from the Senior Officer “Top Gun” course., and Senior Officers Safety Course USNPG School. My initial USMC training was as in Infantry Officer at “The Basic School,” Quantico, VA, Vietnam Service Medal (2 stars).. Life member Disabled American Veterans.

Education:

United States Naval Academy, BS

U.S. Naval Aviator, Carrier Qualified Jet Pilot

Cornell University, MBA

Clearance

Top Secret (SCI) based on full Field Investigation

Full Field FBI Investigation to be appointed by the President and Confirmed by the Senate to be awarded the title “The Honorable” for life


F35B - Correct Decision.

PS Keep away from the Defence Science and Technical Laboratory at Porton Down. They deal with a lot of nasty stuff like chemical agents and gases and all sorts of horrible things. And lot's of animals go in there and never come out again and those that do sometimes don't look like the same animal that went in.

lol
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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:06 pm

Irn Bru wrote:

Well now your starting to believe your own publicity because the last time we had a discussion on defence you were jumping about all over a forum telling everyone that the Typhoon couldn't do a ground attack and drop bombs and they wouldn't be able to do that until around 2018. You were basing that on newspaper articles and a report from the National Audit Office but I told you they were wrong because the Typhoon could do a ground attack and launch bombs - and what happened just a few weeks later? Yep - the Typhoon did launch a ground attack and delivered bombs on Libyan targets with pinpoint accuracy. Remember now? Of course you do.

And here you are again jumping in with reports from a newspaper that has selected extracts from something published by the Defence Science and Technical Laboratory (they're being cut as well) which may well be based on data on the F35B that is out of date. Latest data on operational effectiveness has shown that the nautical radius differences between the two aircraft is narrowing. And they appear to have discounted all the advantages that the F35B brings to the battlefield and the risks involved in buying the F35C and the limitations on its capabilities. And I see this in the newspaper report

The MoD said no decision had been made on switching to the jump jet, and played down the paper’s findings. A spokesman said: “As you would expect, the MoD works up a wide range of scenarios, many of which are highly unlikely, to scope contingency work as fully as possible.” He added: “The Government has been clear that UK combat operations in Afghanistan will cease by the end of 2014.”

And in the article I linked to in the OP they said this:

The combat and mission systems of the 'jump jet' version of the F-35 are almost identical to the carrier variant.

And in case you didn't know, the F35C still hasn't managed to take off and land on a carrier due to technical problems that are causing serious concerns within the DoD that may well end up with the carrier variant requiring serious major modifications or maybe even the axe. At the last test there were 8 attempts at a landing and the hook failed to catch the trap every single time.

Tell you what, I'll leave you in the hands of Ed Timberlake (a man who realy knows what he's talking about and knows all about this aircraft). He will tell you why the F35B is the correct choice. Here's the link and here's his bio:

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-uk-rethinks-the-f-35c-decision-shaping-a-british-led-expeditionary-strike-group/

Ed Timberlake - Military Experience:
Marine Fighter Pilot, and Commanding Officer of VMFA-321, a reserve USMC Fighter Squadron, I graduated from the Senior Officer “Top Gun” course., and Senior Officers Safety Course USNPG School. My initial USMC training was as in Infantry Officer at “The Basic School,” Quantico, VA, Vietnam Service Medal (2 stars).. Life member Disabled American Veterans.

Education:

United States Naval Academy, BS

U.S. Naval Aviator, Carrier Qualified Jet Pilot

Cornell University, MBA

Clearance

Top Secret (SCI) based on full Field Investigation

Full Field FBI Investigation to be appointed by the President and Confirmed by the Senate to be awarded the title “The Honorable” for life


F35B - Correct Decision.

PS Keep away from the Defence Science and Technical Laboratory at Porton Down. They deal with a lot of nasty stuff like chemical agents and gases and all sorts of horrible things. And lot's of animals go in there and never come out again and those that do sometimes don't look like the same animal that went in.

lol
Excellent post dude your knowledge on the subject is impressive and obviously not restricted to news paper gossip and "unnamed" sources





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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:10 pm

Irn Bru wrote:

Well now your starting to believe your own publicity because the last time we had a discussion on defence you were jumping about all over a forum telling everyone that the Typhoon couldn't do a ground attack and drop bombs and they wouldn't be able to do that until around 2018. You were basing that on newspaper articles and a report from the National Audit Office but I told you they were wrong because the Typhoon could do a ground attack and launch bombs - and what happened just a few weeks later? Yep - the Typhoon did launch a ground attack and delivered bombs on Libyan targets with pinpoint accuracy. Remember now? Of course you do.

And here you are again jumping in with reports from a newspaper that has selected extracts from something published by the Defence Science and Technical Laboratory (they're being cut as well) which may well be based on data on the F35B that is out of date. Latest data on operational effectiveness has shown that the nautical radius differences between the two aircraft is narrowing. And they appear to have discounted all the advantages that the F35B brings to the battlefield and the risks involved in buying the F35C and the limitations on its capabilities. And I see this in the newspaper report

The MoD said no decision had been made on switching to the jump jet, and played down the paper’s findings. A spokesman said: “As you would expect, the MoD works up a wide range of scenarios, many of which are highly unlikely, to scope contingency work as fully as possible.” He added: “The Government has been clear that UK combat operations in Afghanistan will cease by the end of 2014.”

And in the article I linked to in the OP they said this:

The combat and mission systems of the 'jump jet' version of the F-35 are almost identical to the carrier variant.

And in case you didn't know, the F35C still hasn't managed to take off and land on a carrier due to technical problems that are causing serious concerns within the DoD that may well end up with the carrier variant requiring serious major modifications or maybe even the axe. At the last test there were 8 attempts at a landing and the hook failed to catch the trap every single time.

Tell you what, I'll leave you in the hands of Ed Timberlake (a man who realy knows what he's talking about and knows all about this aircraft). He will tell you why the F35B is the correct choice. Here's the link and here's his bio:

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-uk-rethinks-the-f-35c-decision-shaping-a-british-led-expeditionary-strike-group/

Ed Timberlake - Military Experience:
Marine Fighter Pilot, and Commanding Officer of VMFA-321, a reserve USMC Fighter Squadron, I graduated from the Senior Officer “Top Gun” course., and Senior Officers Safety Course USNPG School. My initial USMC training was as in Infantry Officer at “The Basic School,” Quantico, VA, Vietnam Service Medal (2 stars).. Life member Disabled American Veterans.

Education:

United States Naval Academy, BS

U.S. Naval Aviator, Carrier Qualified Jet Pilot

Cornell University, MBA

Clearance

Top Secret (SCI) based on full Field Investigation

Full Field FBI Investigation to be appointed by the President and Confirmed by the Senate to be awarded the title “The Honorable” for life


F35B - Correct Decision.

PS Keep away from the Defence Science and Technical Laboratory at Porton Down. They deal with a lot of nasty stuff like chemical agents and gases and all sorts of horrible things. And lot's of animals go in there and never come out again and those that do sometimes don't look like the same animal that went in.

lol

I do love the way that you dismiss anything that does not fit in with your view of the world.

Explain how a plane that has less endurance and carriers a smaller weapons load is actually better than one that can fly further and carry more weapons.

you do know why it can't fly so far and carry less weapons don't you?????

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:09 pm

In A Flap wrote:

I do love the way that you dismiss anything that does not fit in with your view of the world.

Explain how a plane that has less endurance and carriers a smaller weapons load is actually better than one that can fly further and carry more weapons.

you do know why it can't fly so far and carry less weapons don't you?????

I'm just giving my point of view and backing it up with opinions from people who know what the are talking about. You're using newspapers.

The F35B is just as capable than the F35C and it can operate in more extreme weather conditions which would ground the F35C and it can carry out more sorties per day due to a quicker 'gas and go' ratio.

And it is estimated that around 80% of Carrier operations over their life span will be in supporting 'green water' amphibious operations rather than 'blue water' operations in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.The days of battle groups searching out the enemy battle group in the wide open spaces of the worlds oceans are long gone in the modern warfare conditions which exist today.

The case for the F35B was never more obvious than in the Libya mission when the USMC used the Harriers from the USN carriers to full effect and it may well be that was what it was that prompted the government to change their minds.

The case for the F35C was made only to accomodate French jets which it is now known couldn't land on the carriers anyway.

You're thinking on this is simililar to the French in defending their country in WWII with cavalry against panzers

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:21 pm

In A Flap wrote:the point with nuclear carriers is that they do not need to be refuelled on extended operations.

But the escort ships do?
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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Guest on Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:15 pm

Irn Bru wrote:

I'm just giving my point of view and backing it up with opinions from people who know what the are talking about. You're using newspapers.

The F35B is just as capable than the F35C and it can operate in more extreme weather conditions which would ground the F35C and it can carry out more sorties per day due to a quicker 'gas and go' ratio.

And it is estimated that around 80% of Carrier operations over their life span will be in supporting 'green water' amphibious operations rather than 'blue water' operations in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.The days of battle groups searching out the enemy battle group in the wide open spaces of the worlds oceans are long gone in the modern warfare conditions which exist today.

The case for the F35B was never more obvious than in the Libya mission when the USMC used the Harriers from the USN carriers to full effect and it may well be that was what it was that prompted the government to change their minds.

The case for the F35C was made only to accomodate French jets which it is now known couldn't land on the carriers anyway.

You're thinking on this is simililar to the French in defending their country in WWII with cavalry against panzers


however time over target and weapons load are important options and the carrier based plane has an 80 minute time over target compared to 20minutes for the vstol version for the same 300 mile launch range and can carry a larger weapons load there.
for close air support loiter time is very important, a carrier is far more versatile than a though deck cruiser.
it seems labour planned for the last war instead of teh next one.

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Re: F35B makes it's maiden flight for the Royal Navy.

Post by Irn Bru on Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:37 pm

In A Flap wrote:

however time over target and weapons load are important options and the carrier based plane has an 80 minute time over target compared to 20minutes for the vstol version for the same 300 mile launch range and can carry a larger weapons load there.
for close air support loiter time is very important, a carrier is far more versatile than a though deck cruiser.
it seems labour planned for the last war instead of teh next one.

That's not much good if you can't get the aircraft in the air in the first place due to weather conditions. The cat and trap sytem is a much more sophiticated piece of equipment these days and if that malfunctions or takes a hit or the ship loses power then the aircraft are useless. And based on future projections on what the carriers will be required to do, the distance ain't going to be such a significant factor because the world is a much smaller place these days and it's highly unlikely we will be battling with enemy task forces in the mid Atlantic or Pacific Oceans, it'll be close in shore support that will be required as witnessed in the Libya mission backed up by land based jets I thought the examples shown by Ed Timberlake demonstrated that quite significantly. The F35B is much more flexible in where it can be deployed - carrier or land putting it nearer the battle area
And it is estimated that the Navy won't be able to get their hands on any F35Cs until well into 2020 and even then the projected number is only 12.
And all this nonsense about it being a cost-cutting exercise is just just that - nonsense. The figure quoted is from BAE Systems who are building the carriers but that is disputed by people in the US and the information that I know about is that the US government are quoting a figure of 500 million and will underwrite any costs over and above that. So you might just get a surprise and find that Cameron will still go ahead with the F65C - it's a case of watch this space.
When you say the last government planned for the last war rather than the next one you have to wonder why the Tories didn't have any plan at all by scrapping the carriers we had including the two we used in the Falkands leaving us with nothing. Let's just hope another war doesn't come around before about 2020 and even then we may still have nothing.
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