How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:06 pm

MrDoodles wrote:Well I blame Raymond Baxter!!! Mad

He told me on "Tomorrow's World" in the mid 70's, that by the year 2000, because of mechanisation, we'd all now have more Leisure time than we knew what to do with! Very Happy

I didn't expect that to mean that we now have 10 Million "Economically In-Active!" Sad

LOL I remember that Mr D and it's passed into our cultural folklore! That's why I can't understand people's lame acceptance of the current government's drive to make people work longer, have lower pensions and overall even more insecurity in their working lives. They truly have been brainwashed into believing the corporate view of the world is the only one that's viable, on I think sometimes an Orwellian scale. We all know the technology is there to reduce our working hours and in many cases replace our jobs completely and for the better; who really wants to stand on a production line sorting bolts all day and even in white collar office/retail work automation is and can take over many mundane human tasks. Yet the pressure for the past thirty years has been to not just individually work longer hours, but in a household to have at least two people working to pay the bills etc. It is ludicrious and we are clearly being exploited, but so many people seem incapable of facing up to that.

There are endless complaints about public sector non-jobs but there are very many more in the private sector- the call centres, the over-bloated HR depts, the insurance and mortgage brokers, the corporate bean counters- and that is what characterises our economy now; one stuffed with non-jobs so that the establishment elite can maintain their power over us through the traditional method of tied employment. We are being exploited now more than ever, but we are so numbed by 200 TV channels on our [Chinese manufactured] Plasma tellies and a totally false sense of prosperity through artiifically high property prices etc that it's a case of many of us refusing to see it, rather than not being able to.

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:09 pm

Skemster wrote:

LOL I remember that Mr D and it's passed into our cultural folklore! That's why I can't understand people's lame acceptance of the current government's drive to make people work longer, have lower pensions and overall even more insecurity in their working lives. They truly have been brainwashed into believing the corporate view of the world is the only one that's viable, on I think sometimes an Orwellian scale. We all know the technology is there to reduce our working hours and in many cases replace our jobs completely and for the better; who really wants to stand on a production line sorting bolts all day and even in white collar office/retail work automation is and can take over many mundane human tasks. Yet the pressure for the past thirty years has been to not just individually work longer hours, but in a household to have at least two people working to pay the bills etc. It is ludicrious and we are clearly being exploited, but so many people seem incapable of facing up to that.

There are endless complaints about public sector non-jobs but there are very many more in the private sector- the call centres, the over-bloated HR depts, the insurance and mortgage brokers, the corporate bean counters- and that is what characterises our economy now; one stuffed with non-jobs so that the establishment elite can maintain their power over us through the traditional method of tied employment. We are being exploited now more than ever, but we are so numbed by 200 TV channels on our [Chinese manufactured] Plasma tellies and a totally false sense of prosperity through artiifically high property prices etc that it's a case of many of us refusing to see it, rather than not being able to.

Excellent post, which just about sums up the mess we're in! Very Happy Sad

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:38 pm

I enjoyed reading th exchanges between Victor and Skemster.

A simple point in response. Ifwe took all the riches of the very rich and distributed equally amongst the population within a couple of years the majority of money would be back with a minority.

The whole concept is anathema to me as you would guess and of course makes no effort to take into account the efforts people have made to ammass their fortunes.

Socialism rewards the shirkers and shafts the workers. Nothing new there then.

Of course the Soviets did all of this after ther revolution look how that Socialist model ended up.

Give me benevolent Capatalism anyday than well meaning but utterly hopeless Socialism. No enterprise no energy. Socialism encourages lethargy why work if it will be taken off you.


Last edited by H20 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:21 pm

H20 wrote:I enjoyed reading th exchanges between Victor and Skemster.

A simple point in response. Ifwe took all the riches of the very rich and distributed equally amongst the population within a couple of years the majority of money would be back with a minority.

The whole concept is anathema to me as you would guess and of course makes no effort to take into account the efforts people have made to ammass their fortunes.

Socialism rewards the shirkers and shafts the workers. Nothing new their then.

Of course the Soviets did all of this after ther revolution look how that Socialist model ended up.

Give me benevolent Capatalism anyday than well meaning but utterly hopeless Socialism. No enterprise no energy. Socialism encourages lethargy why work if it will be taken off you.

Hi H20
With proper redistributive measures and caps on income a minority couldn't claim majority levels of money and as a result the whole of society would become more productive [and happier]. Nor is it a fanciful unworkable notion; countries like the Scandinavian countries and Japan and Germany have pursued policies that have worked at achieving just that, and they are much more successful economies [and arguably cultures] than ours Very Happy

Also the old chesnut about socialism encouraging lethargy. Do you know what is now commonly accepted as the golden age of capitalism in the West by all part of the political spectrum? 1945-79. Growth rates and social mobility during that time outstripped massively anything that has been achieved during the past thirty years of unregulated free market capitalism. And what was in place then? A political consensus based on social democratic principles of a strong central state [note 'strong' not 'big'] distributing wealth fairly through a progressive welfare system and direct industrial investment/subsidy. During that time the rabid capitalist hound was caged but well feed, rather than allowed to roam the streets eating whatever it liked and attacking everyone Very Happy

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:28 pm

Strangely enough Mentor a few years ago my wife worked for Astra Zeneca and spent alot of time with Swedes. A point of discussion was their horrendous high taxation around 70%.

It was regarded as more and more of an issue and the over genorous welfare state was likewise being challenged for its creation of generations of non workers.

The welfare state over here is a nightmare for giving people the option of not working which is morally wrong and bad for generations in non working families.

Frank Fields left wing politician saw this years ago and was blocked by Brown As a Tory it doesn't stop me recognising good guys even on the opposition benches. I also can see the Devils as well.

In order to bring about the changes you suggest the iron curtain would have to be erected aroung the UK. I'm not suggesting that all taxation is bad nor do I object to good public services to look after those who cannot look after themselves.

However I do not support state sposored theft either. Taxation rates have reached that level in the UK a consequent is the likelihood we shall lose some high earners.

Did you know there are 8000 individuals on top tax rates who pay almost as much tax as 6 million lower paid taxpayers.

Did you know the Irish govt was extremely concerned about tax flight of its 3000 top rate taxpayers because of the catastophic effect of them leaving.

You suggested that tax flight is a myth. Let me tell you Mrs H20 and I are thinking of moving with her work when she can get an overseas assignment to the US for that very reason.

I will publish some interesting tables on tax income if you are interested.


Last edited by MrDoodles on Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo's)

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:59 pm

MrDoodles wrote:Well I blame Raymond Baxter!!! Mad

He told me on "Tomorrow's World" in the mid 70's, that by the year 2000, because of mechanisation, we'd all now have more Leisure time than we knew what to do with! Very Happy

I didn't expect that to mean that we now have 10 Million "Economically In-Active!" Sad


i remember that we were all supposed to retire at 40, the trouble is we should be, not working into our old age to pay off mortgages.

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:11 pm

justme wrote:


i remember that we were all supposed to retire at 40, the trouble is we should be, not working into our old age to pay off mortgages.



That's before Nu Liebour decided to flood our country with immigrants and criminals. There is now too many foreigners either taking British workers jobs or sponging off the state taking money to which they have never contributed and robbing us of the money for which we have worked all our lives.

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:15 pm

H20 wrote:Strangely enough Mentor a few years ago my wife worked for Astra Zeneca and spent alot of time with Swedes. A point of discussion was their horrendous high taxation around 70%.

It was regarded as more and more of an issue and the over genorous welfare state was likewise being challenged for its creation of generations of non workers.

The welfare state over here is a nightmare for giving people the option of not working which is morally wrong and bad for generations in non working families.

Frank Fields left wing politician saw this years ago and was blocked by Brown As a Tory it doesn't stop me recognising good guys even on the opposition benches. I also can see the Devils as well.

In order to bring about the changes you suggest the iron curtain would have to be erected aroung the UK. I'm not suggesting that all taxation is bad nor do I object to good public services to look after those who cannot look after themselves.

However I do not support state sposored theft either. Taxation rates have reached that level in the UK a consequent is the likelihood we shall lose some high earners.

Did you know there are 8000 individuals on top tax rates who pay almost as much tax as 6 million lower paid taxpayers.

Did you know the Irish govt was extremely concerned about tax flight of its 3000 top rate taxpayers because of the catastophic effect of them leaving.

You suggested that tax flight is a myth. Let me tell you Mrs H20 and I are thinking of moving with her work when she can get an overseas assignment to the US for that very reason.

I will publish some interesting tables on tax income if you are interested.



lol first of all people don't have the option not to work, people are in a situation where they can't work, not just because of lack of jobs but because of poor education and poor life skills and experience. i doubt if many people actually chose not to work because of the great lifestyle being on benfits gives. really would a normal educated well balanced person want to live on 60 quid a week. there are unemployable people who live is shit areas with no job prospects, inadequate housing, inadaquate schools, with no chance of improving their lot even if they wanted to. it is not an immoral choice they made, it is govts who created this underclass and now scapegoats them for everything. btw did you know that the poorer you are the greater amount percentage wise you pay in tax. Now that is immoral!

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:19 pm

fred bloggs wrote:



That's before Nu Liebour decided to flood our country with immigrants and criminals. There is now too many foreigners either taking British workers jobs or sponging off the state taking money to which they have never contributed and robbing us of the money for which we have worked all our lives.



That is more to do wth the EU than labour, no one can stop east europeans coming here as far as I know, it will be the Turks next. They are great when they serve you in hotels tho, always polite not like surly brits.

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:46 pm

sassy1261 wrote:You are really laying out your own assumptions here and saying there is no other way. I agree there should be cuts. However, they need to be investigated in great detail and the economics of them worked out properly before jumping in with both feet. Its no good bringing in massive cuts if it actually means you are going to end up with less income, which is what I think is going to happen at the moment. For example, take a company that distributes books. If you take out the people that move the books, the people that pack the books, the people that post the books, you are going to sell less books and have less income. Leave the workers and take out some of the management, you have less expenditure, because they are the people that cost the most, but you still make as much money. I have never yet seen a company go down because it got rid of some of its management. If the workers stop, its a whole different ball game. This government would rather get rid of the workers, after all, we can't have bankers going without can we?

Mark this day on your calendar. I actually agree with you. affraid

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Re: How can Labour govern if they haven't got any more Credit Cards to use.

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:36 pm

justanAmericangal wrote:

Mark this day on your calendar. I actually agree with you. affraid

There is good and bad in Sassys post.

A reality check the public sector spoends it the private sector earns it. At the moment the public sector spends more than the country earns. We haven't got a choice Sassy and JAA. Labour created that not the bankers.

The bankers messed up through greed but it wasn't them who vbloated the public sector to levels beyond our ability to pay. That was firmly Labours fault.

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