what the h-ll are we fighting for???

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what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:29 pm

It is reported that President Karzai of Afghanistan has endorsed a new decree from the Ulema Council. This effectively makes women second class citizens, the property of their husbands without any recourse to the law. No educational rights, no voting rights etc., etc., Of course all according to the Koran and Sharia Law, which overules state law. For this hundreds of our boys and girls have been killed and/or mutilated. What did we go there for in the first place and why are we still there? When we leave it will still be the same Islamic hell-hole as it was under the Taliban. The religion of peace and equality? If it wasn't so sad I would laugh out loud. If there is any chance of the UK going the same way then I would get myself an HK MP5 with a large supply of ammunition.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:59 pm

What I find sad Dreamtime, is that before the Taliban, the position of women was much better, in fact women in Afghanistan had the vote before women in Britain. The same in Iraq, before sanctions and the invasion women played a big part in Iraq, there was 100% education for girls and boys and many women worked. Now in both countries they are in a much worse position.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:28 am

I agree Sassy, it just shows we should have left well alone in both countries and saved thousands of lives and billions of pounds.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:11 am

Sassy the reason we went into ASfghanistan is because of the Taliban. They were already there and we were worried about the Al Queada links.



Having said that my own son is in the Royal Engineers preparing for deployment there in the Summer. I am sick to the stomach at the thought of him losing his life for these dark ages savages. Women under fundamentalist Islam are little more than chattels. That applies here in good old UK as well we don't have to travel that far to face this problem.



I wished my son would jack it in but it is his career choice. I am very very proud of him but they aren't worth his life.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:18 pm

Drinky I wish I could agree with you we went because of the Taliban, I don't think we were that altruistic, I think is America had not wanted the pipelines protected we would not have set foot in the place. I am proud of all our troops, living next to the barracks and having a father who was in the Air Force, I know what they are prepared to do, but they should not be there and they most definitely should not have been sent to Iraq. They have to go where they are sent and make the best of it, our politicians disgust me that they put the troops in that position for political ends.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:16 pm

I agree with both of you, Drinky and Sassy. The pipeline is ultra important but is it worth thousands of lives? The USA and UK were bothered about the Taliban training future terrorists, but instead of Afghanistan they are now trained in the Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan The latter is the greatest unofficial supporter of Moslem terrorism and supplies support and arms to the Taliban. I feel very sad for you and your son Drinky that he is about to be pitched into that hell-hole. I wish him God speed and a safe return.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:20 pm

As do all of us Dreamtime, I remember when my neighbour's son was in Iraq and the hell she went through.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:50 pm

My son is currently on a search course. Guess what he has to search for. IEDs. Talk about the jackpot job eh?



This is a difficult one for any of us to prove either way but I am satisfied that at least in part this intervemntion was prompted by the actions of the Taliban. The piupeline issue does not make this mutually exclusive but they can be connected.



My point is and I think you may agree with me twice today is that the general population seems pretty much of the same calibre as the Taliban and that women in both Taliban controlled areas and outside them are very poorly treated. Moreover I understand from other serving soldiers that the Afgan govt is so corrupt that living under Taliban control means at least you are free of constantly being being pressed for bribes.



I believe we cannot change that by our presence there as they are centuries behind us. If I were in Camerons shoes I would be pressing the Americans behind the scenes to wind up ops and give it to the Afghans to police.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:01 pm

Sorry, but have to disagree with you just a bit, before the Taliban it was very different for women, I found this site quite interesting because it is trying to document women's history in Afghan.

http://www.afghan-web.com/woman/afghanwomenhistory.html

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:47 pm

Drinky wrote:My son is currently on a search course. Guess what he has to search for. IEDs. Talk about the jackpot job eh?



This is a difficult one for any of us to prove either way but I am satisfied that at least in part this intervemntion was prompted by the actions of the Taliban. The piupeline issue does not make this mutually exclusive but they can be connected.



My point is and I think you may agree with me twice today is that the general population seems pretty much of the same calibre as the Taliban and that women in both Taliban controlled areas and outside them are very poorly treated. Moreover I understand from other serving soldiers that the Afgan govt is so corrupt that living under Taliban control means at least you are free of constantly being being pressed for bribes.



I believe we cannot change that by our presence there as they are centuries behind us. If I were in Camerons shoes I would be pressing the Americans behind the scenes to wind up ops and give it to the Afghans to police.



The people of Afghanistan will ALWAYS be Taliban supporters. I am of the opinion that British lives have been sacrificed by idiotic British politicians for their personal kudos, which was typical of Bliar and the Liebour party.. The Tories unfortunately have carried on with Liebour's disasterous war. The sooner all our troops are out of there and on their way home the better.

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:54 pm

dreamtime wrote:I agree Sassy, it just shows we should have left well alone in both countries and saved thousands of lives and billions of pounds.

Yes I agree, Dreamtime. All those lives lost, families lives ruined and what has it achieved? Evil or Very Mad

Drinky, I know you are very proud and rightly so. I hope your son is home safely soon x


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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by SEXY MAMA on Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:21 pm

There is no point. The Afghans wont learn anything.

We should bring our Troops home Sad
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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:24 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:There is no point. The Afghans wont learn anything.

We should bring our Troops home Sad

Hi Sexy I love you x

Totally agree, the sooner the better

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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by SEXY MAMA on Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:27 pm

Feelthelove wrote:

Hi Sexy I love you x

Totally agree, the sooner the better

Yup xxx
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Re: what the h-ll are we fighting for???

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:32 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:There is no point. The Afghans wont learn anything.

We should bring our Troops home Sad

I agree with bringing our troops home, but many many Afghans, women most of all do not want the Taliban, regardless of what other people say, and women's lives have changed very much under them. There was things on the site I have mentioned that I had no idea about:

1899 (November 24th): Soraya Tarzi, daughter of Afghan intellectual Mahmud Tarzi, wife of King Amanullah and future Queen of Afghanistan was born. As Queen, she worked hard for women's rights and freedoms in Afghanistan. She became one of the most influential women in the Muslim world at the time, and she helped her husband in his modernization efforts - despite major resistance from the conservative elements of Afghan society.

1901 - 1919
(Rule of Habibullah Khan.) Amir Habibullah Khan allowed the return of political exiles such as Mahmud Tarzi who also fought for women's rights. Because of Tarzi's influence, Amir Habibullah opened a school for girls that even contained an English curriculum. Interestingly enough, Amir Habibullah Khan himself had numerous wives, far more than what is allowed in Islam. He had his religious clerics use twisted religious interpretations and had the women declared as servants, concubines and harem ladies.
1919 - 1929
(Rule of Amanullah Khan) During his rule, King Amanullah Khan worked with his father in-law Mahmud Tarzai, and his wife Queen Soraya to improve the lives of women in Afghanistan. He discouraged polygamy, was against the veil, as well as pushed for greater personal freedom for women. At a public function King Amanullah stated:
Religion does not require women to veil their hands, feet and
faces or enjoin any special type of veil. Tribal custom must
not impose itself on the free will of the individual.

Early 1920s: King Amanullah's sister, Kobra, created Anjuman-E-Himayat-E-Niswan (Organization for Women's Protection). Her organization encouraged women to voice their complaints, as well as pushed for women unity, and fought against injustices and oppression. Another sister of King Amanullah established a hospital for Afghan women.

Also, during this time, Queen Soraya founded the first magazine for women called, Ershad-E-Niswan (Guidance for Women).

1928: Various conservative tribal leaders organized and fought against the freedoms King Amanullah pushed for women in Kabul. They pushed against women's education and personal freedoms.

1929 - 1933
(Rule of Mohammad Nadir Shah) Nadir Shah succumbed to the requests of the tribal leaders and pushed back many of the reforms King Amanullah had implemented. Nadir Shah banned Jarideh Zanan, the only newspaper at the time published by Afghan women. Nadir Shah was very careful not to upset the conservative tribal leaders.
1933 - 1973
(Rule of Mohammad Zahir Shah) During this period, slow and gradual change occurred for women. With the efforts of his reformist cousin and Prime Minister, Mohammad Daoud Khan, eventually, women started to enter the work force and were able to become teachers, nurses and even politicians.
1941: First secondary female school was established in Kabul.
1959: Women were allowed to unveil, and the wives of the ruling family, and senior government officials appeared unveiled at public functions, and soon others followed. No revolts in Kabul occurred over this, however, a revolt did occur in Kandahar, and roughly 60 people were killed as a result. The revolt was eventually suppressed by the government.
1964: The constitution gave women the right to vote, and allowed them to enter politics.
1965: The Democratic Organization of Afghan Women (DOAW) was formed. DOAW worked against illiteracy, forced marriages and bride prices.
1968 (April 20th): Queen Soraya passed away in exile in Rome, Italy.
1972: Zohra Yusuf Daoud was crowned as the first Miss Afghanistan. There was no swimsuit competition, however, there was an evening gown competition.

1973 -1978
(Presidency of Mohammad Daoud Khan) Similar to King Amanullah, Mohammad Daoud Khan encouraged the abandonment of the veil by Afghan women. During these years, women gradually enjoyed much more personal freedoms and rights. However, most of these advances were limited to women living in Kabul and other major cities. Most of the rural areas still remained backwards and women continued to be oppressed, and treated as property rather than human beings with equal rights.
1977: An Afghan woman activist named Meena Keshwar Kamal laid the foundation of RAWA (Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan). Later, when the Mujahideen defeated the Soviets and freed Afghanistan from communist rule, RAWA became critical of them, and even accused them of war crimes. RAWA wishes to establish a secular government in Afghanistan, and are against an Islamic government.

1978
(Communist Rule-pre Soviet invasion) People Democratic Party of Afghanistan (PDPA) was heavily supported by the Russians (Soviet Union). PDPA quickly pushed for massive social reforms.
October: Decree was issued. Compulsory education for girls. Bride price was abolished. Minimum legal age for marriage for girls was set at 16.
Alongside the rapid modernization and reform agendas, the communist ideology was also forced down on people, many times using brutal violence. There was very little tolerance for tribal and religious customs. In rural areas, PDPA was seen as disregarding sensitive tribal values and traditions, and thus caused resentment and backlash. The PDPA responded with brutal violence - killing scores of innocent people.

1979 - 1989
(Afghan-Soviet War) Soviet Union (Russia) invaded Afghanistan. During the Soviet war, many civilians including numerous women and children were killed by the communist government and their Russian allies. However, in the Afghan capital and in some of the major cities under the communist government's control, woman did get to enjoy some basic freedoms.
1980 (April 29th): A high school student named Nahid helped organize and participated in a massive demonstration protesting the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. She was able to organize girls from different schools around Kabul. She was killed and became a martyr and a symbol of patriotism in Afghanistan still till today.
1984: Khatol Mohammadzai became Afghanistan's first woman paratrooper. She later becomes a General in the Afghan National Army.
1987 (February 4th) - Meena Keshwar Kamal, the founder of RAWA was assassinated.

1989 - 1992
(Dr. Najibullah's Regime) The Mujahideen were still waging war against Najibullah's communist government during these years. Not much social development due to war.
1992 - 1996
(Mujahideen government and civil war) The Mujahideen took Kabul and liberated Afghanistan from the Communists and the Mujahideen formed an Islamic State. Eventually a civil war broke out, and during this time, gross violations of abuses occurred not only against women but the population in general. Massacres and mass killings occurred and the war took on an ethnic tone. Despite all of the chaos, women were still allowed to work, and get an education under the Mujahideen government of Burhanuddin Rabbani. In fact, before the Taliban took over Kabul, about half of the working population were women. They were employed as teachers, doctors, as well as in other professional occupations. See photos of Afghan women before and after the Taliban took over Kabul. Towards the end of his administration, in an attempt to strengthen his government against the increasing power of the Taliban, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar was appointed as the new Prime Minister. Hekmatyar immediately restricted some women's freedoms, however they could still attend school and work.
1993: Suraya Sadeed established "Help the Afghan Children, Inc." The organization's goal is to improve the lives of children in Afghanistan.

1996 - 2001
(Taliban Rule) In September 1996, the Taliban took over Afghanistan's capital and immediately imposed restrictions on Afghan women. They were forbidden to work, leave the house without a male escort, not allowed to seek medical help from a male doctor, and forced to cover themselves from head to toe, even covering their eyes. Women who were doctors and teachers before, suddenly were forced to be beggars and even prostitutes in order to feed their families. During the rule of the Taliban, women were treated worse than in any other time or by any other society. Also see: Afghan Women's Health And The Taliban
Late 2001 The United Front (aka Alliance) together with the United States attacked the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and forced them out of Kabul.. The restrictions on Afghan women were officially lifted and they were allowed to once again work and go to school. Unfortunately, today, the abuse of women continue as the government is too weak to enforce many of the laws, especially in the rural areas, and in once Taliban supported areas.
December 5th: At the Bonn meeting, Dr. Sima Samar was chosen to be the first Deputy Chair and Minister of Women’s Affairs in the Interim Administration of Afghanistan under President Hamid Karzai. Later she was appointed as Chairperson of the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC).

Post Taliban Rule / Hamid Karzai's Administration
2002 August 19th: Khatol Mohammadzai became the first female General in the Afghan National Army.
2003 November: Vida Samadzai caused controversy after unofficially representing Afghanistan and posed in a revealing red bikini during the Miss Earth beauty pageant in 2003. Samadzai did not win the Miss Earth beauty pageant, however, the coordinators of the event presented her with a special "beauty for a cause" award.
December 17th: Malalai Joya gained international attention when as an elected delegate to the Loya Jirga convened to ratify Afghanistan's constitution, made a brief speech in which she criticized her "compatriots" as to why they were bringing the legitimacy of the Loya Jirga into question by including the presence of criminals, and that they instead should be put on trial for their crimes. By criminals she was referring to the former Mujahideen leaders who fought against the Soviets, and were also present in and participating in the Loya Jirga.

2004 Afghanistan adopted its new constitution, establishing the country as an Islamic Republic. According to the constitution:
The citizens of Afghanistan – whether man or woman –
have equal rights and duties before the law.

The constitution also requires 50% of the members of the Meshrano Jirga that the President appoints must be women.

Summer Olympics in Athens: Female athletes Friba Razayee and Robina Muqim Yaar represented Afghanistan for the first time in the country's history.

2005 March 3rd: President Hamid Karzai appointed Afghanistan's first ever-female provincial governor. Governor Habiba Sorabi assumed her post as governor of central Bamiyan Province on March 23, 2005.
Masooda Jalal (a medical doctor), was the only woman to run against Hamid Karzai in the 2005 presidential race. She lost, but was later appointed as Minister of Women's Affairs by President Hamid Karzai.

September 5th: Malalai Joya became the youngest female member of the Wolesi Jirga, when she received the second highest number of votes in Farah province.

2007 May 21st: Malalai Joya was suspended from the Wolesi Jirga. She violated Article 70 of Afghanistan's parliament, which prohibits its members from openly insulting one another. Joya had recently compared the members of the Wolesi Jirga to a "stable or zoo" on an interview with Afghanistan's Tolo TV. The video of the interview was shown to the members of the Wolesi Jirga, and they voted by a clear majority that Joya had broken Article 70, and disrespected her fellow Wolesi Jirga members. They suspended her for the rest of her term.
November 7th: For the first time, a female boxing federation was established by Afghanistan's National Olympic Committee.

December 29th: Bodybuilding club for women was inaugurated in Parwan province.

2008 February 19th: Afghanistan's first political party dedicated to women's rights and issues was launched. Party's name: National Need. Founder: Fatima Nazari.
April 10th: Afghanistan's Ministry of Education stated that more than 5.4 million children have been enrolled in schools, nearly 35% of them girls. However, attacks on schools, especially in the east and south are still very common. The attacks were done by the Taliban, and others who supported their views against education for girls.

November 12th: Two Taliban supporters sprayed acid on the faces of school girls in Kandahar. Over a dozen girls were injured - the girls were left with permanent facial scars. Parents were afraid to send their girls to school because of fear they may be attacked by Taliban supporters.

2009 Early January: Azra Jafari became the country's first woman mayor. She was appointed as mayor of the town Nili in Daikundi province.
July 27: A controversial Shia personal status law was published in the country's official Gazette (Gazette 988); this brought the law into force. The law regulated the personal affairs of Afghanistan's Shia population. It regulated divorce and separation, inheritance, and age of marriage. The law was regarded as being very repressive towards women. Many human rights activists believe it violated Article 22 of Afghanistan's constitution which states: The citizens of Afghanistan – whether man or woman – have equal rights and duties before the law. According to Human Rights Watch, "the law gives a husband the right to withdraw basic maintenance from his wife, including food, if she refuses to obey his sexual demands. It grants guardianship of children exclusively to their fathers and grandfathers. It requires women to get permission from their husbands to work. It also effectively allows a rapist to avoid prosecution by paying "blood money" to a girl who was injured when he raped her." A much more repressive version of the law was signed by President Hamid Karzai in March, however, widespread international condemnation caused the government to place the implementation of the law on hold until further review. Many activists were upset because the law required Shia women to obtain permission from their husbands before leaving the house (except on urgent business), and it also required wives to have sex with her husbands at least once every 4 days.



Womens lives have changed drastically under the Taliban, but there are still many trying to agitate against theml

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