No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

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No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:23 pm

Britain will never again put up with families “languishing on the dole and dependency” after an overhaul of the benefit system, David Cameron has said.


Iain Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, has led the reforms

As Parliament passed the Welfare Reform Bill, the Prime Minister said the laws would “change lives for the better” and allow people to escape poverty. The Coalition pushed through the measures to cap state hand-outs at £26,000 per household and housing benefit at £400 per week after rejecting amendments made by the House of Lords.

A group of Church of England bishops in the Lords tried to stop the reforms affecting welfare payments to cancer patients and families with large numbers of children. However, the Government has got round these objections, with the backing of Labour and some Liberal Democrats, by using the rule of “financial privilege”. This means the Bill does not require the approval of the House of Lords.

The Prime Minister yesterday argued the aim of the changes is to “make work pay” and stop the “something for nothing” culture that stops people seeking employment.

“Past governments have talked about reform, while watching the benefits bill sky rocket and generations languish on the dole and dependency,” he said. “This Government is delivering it. Our new law will mark the end of the culture that said a life on benefits was an acceptable alternative to work.” Mr Cameron said working people could rest assured that they would be better off than those who spend their life on benefits. “We’ve stood up against the abuse that left taxpayers footing the bills for people on £30,000 or even £50,000 a year in benefits,” he said. “It’s a fair principle - a family out of work on benefits shouldn’t be paid more than the average family in work.”

Around 70,000 households are receiving more than £26,000 a year in benefits, which is the equivalent of a taxable salary of £35,000. However, many children’s charities and the Church of England bishops are concerned the proposed cap will unfairly hurt children of large families.

Government figures show that two thirds of families who will lose out on benefits have three or more children, while one in 10 has six or more children. But ministers insist that around three million families will actually be better-off under a simpler system introduced by the reforms. This will see a raft of different benefits replaced by a single “universal credit”.

The reforms will take some time to implement, but by October 2017, approximately 12 to 13 million tax credit and benefit claims will translate into eight million universal credit payments. In further reforms, the Government is setting housing benefit at a maximum of £400 a week. Families in areas with expensive rental prices for housing will be forced to move to cheaper areas under the changes. The Government says this will stop "the scandal of families on benefits living in houses that hard working families could never afford". However, critics, such as the National Housing Federation, believe more than 20,000 families could lose their homes as a result of the cap.

The Coalition made some concessions saying a “grace period” of nine months would apply to anyone who lost their job through no fault of their own before they were subject to the cap.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9114326/No-more-languishing-on-the-dole-after-welfare-reforms-says-David-Cameron.html

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:09 pm

I sincerely wish politicians would get a grip. I want those who have real difficulty to be well looked after and I want those who are ripping us off to have real difficulty getting anything.



The bleeding hearts some on here would have you belive that the number of hard core elements of the won't work variety are miniscule. Not in my experience they aren't.

A welfare system that has become so corrupted by over zealous lefties or politicians seeking to create a community of dependants for electoral advantage risks undermining the founding principles.



Welfare is a brige not an end in itself. It is to fill the financial gap whilst job seeking. It is not meant to elevate the claimant above the status of those in full time work and/or give them properties beyond that they could otherwise afford.



It is not meant to give you a swanky London postcode that will take dozens of average taxpayers a years tax to pay the rent. Only the unrealistic lunatics suggest this is somehow fair.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:39 pm

Good afternoon Drinky, Excellent post in my opinion. However, I would like to further explore what you are alluding to in your last paragraph. The way I see it is those benefit layabouts who are complaining about the cost of housing in London taking up so much of their handouts, and demanding that the tax payer shells out more money in their direction, don't need to live in London at all. They don't work, so they don't need to be where the work is. It would be beneficial for them to move out of London to cheaper areas. Just like those who live in the real world and are employed would do if the cost of their housing was more than they can afford. It would also have the benefit of freeing up housing close to London, saving workers such a long commute. Do you have any thoughts on this?. --- Fred

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:00 pm

Excellent posts gentlemen, both.

We simply have to get a grip about reforming this welfare system which should be a safety net and not just a lifestyle.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:29 pm

fred bloggs wrote:Good afternoon Drinky, Excellent post in my opinion. However, I would like to further explore what you are alluding to in your last paragraph. The way I see it is those benefit layabouts who are complaining about the cost of housing in London taking up so much of their handouts, and demanding that the tax payer shells out more money in their direction, don't need to live in London at all. They don't work, so they don't need to be where the work is. It would be beneficial for them to move out of London to cheaper areas. Just like those who live in the real world and are employed would do if the cost of their housing was more than they can afford. It would also have the benefit of freeing up housing close to London, saving workers such a long commute. Do you have any thoughts on this?. --- Fred



I couldn't have put it better. If you don't work and don't want to work there are plenty of places of the beaten track not near to any place of work that attract very low rents indeed.



I have absolutely no understanding of the lefties arguing the other day on here that they should be allowed to stay iin very up market properties. I suppose it is OK because dare I say it it the high earning taxpayers who pay most of their rents so why should they care.



I will really get in trouble for this but have you noticed that many in these rather grand nmansions are from African countries for example where they will have lived in a one room tin shack. Now they are here they complain when a 3 bedroom house is too small!!!!!



Am I being cruel, heartless, racist perhaps? I don't think so but I know the bleeding hearts on here are bloody stupid and profligate supporting the status quo.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Irn Bru on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:14 pm

Unemployment is going up so how do we get people off the dole if there are no jobs for them?
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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:27 am

Irn Bru wrote:Unemployment is going up so how do we get people off the dole if there are no jobs for them?
perhaps with a increase in public sector jobs that`s what labor did .
rightly or wrongly depending on your view

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:36 am

An interesting story from my own very recent experience. Not long ago I came out of FT work. I recently got a new job, with better prospects and pay. The period inbetween was about 4 weeks. In the meantime the job centre was absolutely atrocious, I had never realized before just how little that institution was in helping people finding work; and in fact what it does to undermine job seeking and discourage you from taking some training.

The first week I was out of work I applied on day one to recieve JSA. Before my appointment however I was called for an interview, which I passed, and was asked to attend a trial period the following day, this obviously meant I had to cancel my JSA appointment and rearrange when/if neccessary.

Anyway, the trial was poor, not on my part, the company was brand new but was clearly not going to work out so I told the company that the job wasn't right for me and that was that, I rearranged with the job centre for an appointment the following week.

What followed was 2 weeks of being bounced between different appointments and really not being told anything or given any help. In this time I was told that:

1. To claim I would need to show proof of 5 different areas checked for jobs each week- this could be as little as five different websites, nothing more.

2. I would have to apply for a whopping 2, thats right TWO jobs each week.

Needless to say when I told the lady on my first appointment I had been spending hours a day searching and sending dozens of CVs each day she looked quite shocked and said that was more than enough. If this is all people have to do it's no wonder so many find it so easy to do F all...

Anyway during that 3rd week I passed 2 interviews and was told to come for an 'training' period with a large company based in the city centre. I have been there all week doing admittedly close to full time hours. It has paid off as I am now back in employment and look forward to starting my new job next week Smile

However. Yesterday morning I had my JSA appointment. I informed them of my training (my mistake clearly, honesty) and was told I probably therefore would not recieve JSA for this week. The reason, I wasn't 'available' for employment during that time- this is regardless of travel expenses and the like. This raised 2 points which I brought up there and then:

1. Dosen't this encourage people to just lie?

2. Worse still, might this not encourage people to refuse unpaid training?

I know now what to do if I find myself in the unfortunate position of unemployment- lie as much as possible. Further, I got a letter yesterday informing me the reason for not applying JSA the first week (the job trial) was not 'good enough' and so I would not be paid for that week either. Surely the point of JSA is to fund you and help you find a new job during these periods????

Is it any wonder so many just give up trying when this is the help on offer?

A good suggestion from me of how to save govt money? Scrap the Job Centre, they are fucking useless...

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:39 am

Irn Bru wrote:Unemployment is going up so how do we get people off the dole if there are no jobs for them?

plenty of people are finding jobs all the time, if businesses are importing foreign labour then how do you propose to address that, maybe by providing valuable work experience for youngsters, oops tried that and apparently the small but very loud SWP argue that its just slave labour

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:46 am

Amen
And yes to both your questions,
they are useless and I have been caught out in the past by being honest. They only want you to say what you need to say to click the boxes on the screen. Any thing outside of that they panic and cant cope.
They are not geared up to help anyone that needs short term help and view everyone the same as the monosyllabic, nut scratching, hoodie wearing they get in their with their pitbulls and orange girlfriends.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:47 am

Seren wrote:

plenty of people are finding jobs all the time, if businesses are importing foreign labour then how do you propose to address that, maybe by providing valuable work experience for youngsters, oops tried that and apparently the small but very loud SWP argue that its just slave labour

What good is experience if there are no jobs at the end of it? Remember 20 people to 1 job on Merseyside.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:06 am

Nems Again wrote:Amen
And yes to both your questions,
they are useless and I have been caught out in the past by being honest. They only want you to say what you need to say to click the boxes on the screen. Any thing outside of that they panic and cant cope.
They are not geared up to help anyone that needs short term help and view everyone the same as the monosyllabic, nut scratching, hoodie wearing they get in their with their pitbulls and orange girlfriends.

Haha, that is about right Nems. I hate the places I really do, and you can see the regulars there too, the ones who are all pally with those working there. I don't see the point at all, if they can't actually help you find a job and will seek to punish you for doing training not assigned by themselves then they are without purpose imo.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Irn Bru on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:19 am

Seren wrote:

plenty of people are finding jobs all the time, if businesses are importing foreign labour then how do you propose to address that, maybe by providing valuable work experience for youngsters, oops tried that and apparently the small but very loud SWP argue that its just slave labour

People are losing jobs faster than people are getting them and many of those getting jobs are just moving from one job to another or taking up part time or temporary work.

There is nothing we can do about importing labour because we are in the EU. If employers find that foreign labour is a more attractive option to employing British workers then we can't do anything about that either.

Leaving the EU would help stop much of that but that option is not on the table of any of our mainstream political parties.
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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:28 am

Nems Again wrote:

What good is experience if there are no jobs at the end of it? Remember 20 people to 1 job on Merseyside.

Merseyside has been in managed decline for decades now though. It's hardly indicative of the rest of the UK.

I posted an article yesterday showing new jobs in North Wales and the SW. I've been trying to educate some here about the growth of the renewable industries and the many jobs created in them.

If you get industry news you'll see loads of new industries all the time. Morrisons is currently undergoing major expansion, had that massive new transport hub and are planning loads of new stores.

Scottish Power, Frankie and Bennys, Center Parcs, Whitbread, Optical Express, all expanding and creating NEW jobs.

Merseyside tbh was an area of high unemployment for years. In the mid 2000's I communted daily to Knowsley to work remember, along with several from North Wales. The locals simply couldn't or wouldn't work and it was just a call centre, hardly rocket science.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:10 pm

eilzel wrote:

Haha, that is about right Nems. I hate the places I really do, and you can see the regulars there too, the ones who are all pally with those working there. I don't see the point at all, if they can't actually help you find a job and will seek to punish you for doing training not assigned by themselves then they are without purpose imo.

They are, they just go through the motions they are feeling as hopeless as the rest of us at the situation and most of them are fearing for their jobs.
The more unemployment rises the more front line staff are laid off.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:27 pm

eilzel wrote:

Haha, that is about right Nems. I hate the places I really do, and you can see the regulars there too, the ones who are all pally with those working there. I don't see the point at all, if they can't actually help you find a job and will seek to punish you for doing training not assigned by themselves then they are without purpose imo.
They can't help most of the times is because there are NO jobs affraid

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:43 pm

David1 wrote:
They can't help most of the times is because there are NO jobs affraid



Whilst that is true to a point now what about the first decade of this century? Many people on the dole choose it as a life style and even when times were better found it far more comfortable and profitable thankyou very much to be on the dole. Indeed we have a situation wwere those with families get better housed and provided for if they don't work.



It is simply doing harm to the country and undermining hard work to seek to paper over the realities David for political motives. The welfare state spend nerly 8% of GDP today. In the 40s it spent half of that when times were considerably harder then than they are today!



If you genuinely want those who can't look after themsleves to have a decent standard of living we need to ensure those that can do not rip off the system.
Indeed with a deficit running at £500 million per day it isn't a choice whether you like it or not.


I read an interesting article yesterday in which it outlined that benefit fraud isn't just a chav thing or organised crime. Well heeled middle classes are at it as well. Regardless of who they are it should be stamped out and the Welfare state should return to its founding principles.



Incidentally the founder whose name escapes me believed in workfare. Benefits are a bridge to help you get back to work not an end in themselves David.


Last edited by Drinky on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:03 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:51 pm

Drinky wrote:



Whilst that is true to a point now what about the first decade of this century? Many people on the dole choose it as a life style and even when times were better found it far more comfortable and profitable thankyou very much to be on the dole. Indeed we have a situation wwere those with families get better housed and provided for if they don't work.



It is simply doing harm to the country and undermining hard work to seek to paper over the realities David for politiocal motives. The welfare state spend nerly 8% of GDP today. In the 40s it spent half of that when times were considerably harder then they are today!



If you genuinely want thoise who cvan't look after thensleves to have a decent standard of living we need to ensure those that can do not rip off the system.



I read an interesting article yesterday in which it outlined that benefit fraud isn't just a chav thing or organised crime. Well heeled middle classes are at it as well. Regardles who they are it should be stamped out and the Welfare state should return to ikts founding principles.



Incidentally the founder whose name escapes me beleived in workfare. Benefits are a bridge to help you get back to work not an end in themselves David.
I agree with you on the benefits scroungers my point was on the real people who want to work.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:52 pm

"the Welfare state should return to its founding principles"

I totally agree Drinky

Benefits are there to help people who are unable to work and as a temporary measure when times get tough. NOT as an alternative lifestyle choice No

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:11 pm

David1 wrote:
I agree with you on the benefits scroungers my point was on the real people who want to work.





The system is disfunctional David. It has by accident of design locked people into it. That is why the govt has sought to put a cap on housing benefit for example. We have a ludicrous situation were a family from East Africa will be housed in a multi million desirable London postcode that someone on £200k per year could not afford. Ironically those who are on £200k do most of the paying for it!



The left have sought to paint the Tories or more correctly the coalition as heartless for attempting to change the status. It is doing a disservice to the really needy as funds get scarcer they are the ones who will suffer.



Gordon Brown cynically shelved 2 years of research and policy work commissioned by Blair and carried out by Frank Fields to reform the welfare state. Fields believed that it was disfucntional and that people were incentivised to stay at home. That was 15 years ago. It is much much worse now and we have an army of nearly 150,000 people in the DWP paying out these benefits.



Brown wanted cynically to have his voting pool bolstered by people reliant on the state. He acheived that by making the whole system hopelessly complicated and man power intensive and incentivising people to stay at home.
I might add his tax credit system was an equal disaster in that it costs a fortune to administer and is prone to massive errors.


Even Labour are now recognising we simply cannot afford to do nothing.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:44 pm

Drinky wrote:





The system is disfunctional David. It has by accident of design locked people into it. That is why the govt has sought to put a cap on housing benefit for example. We have a ludicrous situation were a family from East Africa will be housed in a multi million desirable London postcode that someone on £200k per year could not afford. Ironically those who are on £200k do most of the paying for it!



The left have sought to paint the Tories or more correctly the coalition as heartless for attempting to change the status. It is doing a disservice to the really needy as funds get scarcer they are the ones who will suffer.



Gordon Brown cynically shelved 2 years of research and policy work commissioned by Blair and carried out by Frank Fields to reform the welfare state. Fields believed that it was disfucntional and that people were incentivised to stay at home. That was 15 years ago. It is much much worse now and we have an army of nearly 150,000 people in the DWP paying out these benefits.



Brown wanted cynically to have his voting pool bolstered by people reliant on the state. He acheived that by making the whole system hopelessly complicated and man power intensive and incentivising people to stay at home.
I might add his tax credit system was an equal disaster in that it costs a fortune to administer and is prone to massive errors.


Even Labour are now recognising we simply cannot afford to do nothing.
This is incorrect as DWP had 110 000 before the coalition government. It has had to shed 33% of its workforce affraid

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:14 pm

Why should the DWP not have to become more efficient . All organisations need to cut down on wastage. The public sector management grades (NON JOBS) represent almost half of those who are surplus to requirement. Leave most of the front line staff in employment and sack half of the greedy high salary money grabbing empire building Managers in the Civil and Public services. --- Instant savings all round. They, the managers, are normally the Champagne Socialists in those over bloated services.


Last edited by fred bloggs on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:14 pm

I read this number just a few hours ago David regarding the workforce that is. I will check it out of interests. However it is semantics. We have an army of civil servants working to administer a hopelessly complex disincentivising and fraud ridden system is my main point.

I have quickly tried to Google this without an answer. I think I read the figure in the Telegraph or the Mail. It is shedding some of its workforce it hasn't done it all yet and some functions are being privatised. That merely hides the headcount.



The DWP spends 28% of govt income. That is alot of money.





I misqouted the article said 105,000 sorry. I transposed the 0 and 5. The actual target given to the DWP for spending reductions is 25% according to the BBC cuts watch.



This is made up of staff cuts due to automation and benefits reform. The 28% is confirmed. It is a huge proportion of govt spending and whats worse it grew 25% under Labours term of office in real terms. Tht's an awful lot in 13 years and in conditions tht arew far far better than they were in the 40s.


Last edited by Drinky on Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:21 pm

Drinky wrote:I read this number just a few hours ago David regarding the workforce that is. I will check it out of interests. However it is semantics. We have an army of civil servants working to administer a hopelessly complex disincentivising and fraud ridden system is my main point.

I have quickly tried to Google this without an answer. I think I read the figure in the Telegraph or the Mail. It is shedding some of its workforce it hasn't done it all yet and some functions are being privatised. That merely hides the headcount.



The DWP spends 28% of govt income. That is alot of money.





I misqouted the article said 105,000 sorry. I transposed the 0 and 5. The actual target given to the DWP for spending reductions is 25% according to the BBC cuts watch.



This is made up of staff cuts due to automation and benefits reform. The 28% is confirmed. It is a huge proportion of govt spending and whats worse it grew 25% under Labours term of office in real terms.

It would have needed to, the benefit system was expanding rapidly too.

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Re: No more 'languishing on the dole' after welfare reforms, says David Cameron

Post by Guest on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:28 pm

Nems Again wrote:

It would have needed to, the benefit system was expanding rapidly too.
Agreed!!

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