The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

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The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:58 pm

Germany 1933-1945.

Governed infamously be the National Socialist Party AKA The Nazis.

Adolf Hitler, with his National Socialist policies steered a country facing ruinition following The Great War and The Great Depression through economic hardship to the status of a Military and Industrial powerhouse.

But was it Nationalist ideology or Socialist ideology that led Hitler and his countrymen to commit some of histories greatest crimes against humanity known as the Holocaust?

Discuss...

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:29 pm

Arguably more to do with the ideology of eugenics combined with the culture of violence that characterized Nazi Germany.

In my view it wasn't really all that socialist, unless you also characterize Britain's [1940-1945] war economy as socialist. Both had similar economic structures.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:27 pm

John wrote:Arguably more to do with the ideology of eugenics combined with the culture of violence that characterized Nazi Germany.

In my view it wasn't really all that socialist, unless you also characterize Britain's [1940-1945] war economy as socialist. Both had similar economic structures.

Eugenics was certainly a part. But nationalism and the idea of some twisted idea of a 'pure' race do tend to walk hand in hand. Though I doubt all BNP members have an ideological notion of a pure white Britain, there will be those who do. Also the intolerance of some far-Right people extends far beyond Islam and certain ethnicd groups. And all this echos back to the Nazis.


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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:51 pm

The holocaust, where over ten million poor souls were murdered in horrendous circumstances was a result of Nat/Socialist ideology. Socialist regimes have been responsible for almost all the atrocities of the 20th century. Pol Pot's killing fields of cambodia, Stalin's oppressive and murderous regime, Rwanda's killing machine and many many more. Socialism, although a laudable ideal cannot and does not work unless the people are subjugated by fear and bloody force.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:55 pm

fred bloggs wrote:The holocaust, where over ten million poor souls were murdered in horrendous circumstances was a result of Nat/Socialist ideology. Socialist regimes have been responsible for almost all the atrocities of the 20th century. Pol Pot's killing fields of cambodia, Stalin's oppressive and murderous regime, Rwanda's killing machine and many many more. Socialism, although a laudable ideal cannot and does not work unless the people are subjugated by fear and bloody force.

A good post Fred, but I fear you may have missed the point with your 'attack as the best form of defence' style there Wink

I for one will not deny the many atrocities of Socialist Authoritarian regimes. And yes there have been more by far. But there seems to be an effort thesedays by the Right, mainly nationalists, to distance themselves for from the horrors of the Nazi Party.

Yet, it is eugenics (as John pointed out) AND (arguably) the uprising of nationalism if Germany of the 1930's which led to the Holocaust. There is simply nothing in socialist ideology as a cause of the murder of millions of Jews and others.

I don't know if you are a BNP voter Fred, though this is NOT an attack on them. But it is BNP voters who are most keen to put distance between themselves and accusations of Nazism. Yet I will point out this. BNP voters may look to their party as the saviour of their national identity (thus Nationalists) but have you taken care to look upon the BNPs economic policy?

It is quite socialist. So we have in the BNP a party which is undeniably Nationalist; but with very Socialist ideas for the economy. I'm sure you can see the connection I'm trying to make here Twisted Evil

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:02 pm

eilzel wrote:

I don't know if you are a BNP voter Fred, though this is NOT an attack on them. But it is BNP voters who are most keen to put distance between themselves and accusations of Nazism. Yet I will point out this. BNP voters may look to their party as the saviour of their national identity (thus Nationalists) but have you taken care to look upon the BNPs economic policy?

It is quite socialist. So we have in the BNP a party which is undeniably Nationalist; but with very Socialist ideas for the economy. I'm sure you can see the connection I'm trying to make here Twisted Evil

So do you think that I'm a Nazi Eilzel and that we should have the "Final Solution" for Jews and Gays then? Question Sad

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:10 pm

MrDoodles wrote:

So do you think that I'm a Nazi Eilzel and that we should have the "Final Solution" for Jews and Gays then? Question Sad

No mate, I had hoped to make that clear Sad

What I'm saying is it does tend to be BNP voters who try to cast the Nazis purely as socialists, which is grossly unfair. So it led me to a thinking Smile

I am quite sure the BNP and their supporters are nothing like that (mostly), but to pretend the Nazis weren't built on Nationalism is wrong imo Evil or Very Mad

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:15 pm

eilzel wrote:

No mate, I had hoped to make that clear Sad

What I'm saying is it does tend to be BNP voters who try to cast the Nazis purely as socialists, which is grossly unfair. So it led me to a thinking Smile

I am quite sure the BNP and their supporters are nothing like that (mostly), but to pretend the Nazis weren't built on Nationalism is wrong imo Evil or Very Mad

Thanks for explaining that mate! Very Happy

The way I thought your post was going, is that all BNP Members are Nazi's! Sad

The "N" word for an RW, is as bad as the "F" word for a Gay person and I know that RW's aren't supposed to have feelings, but when you get branded "Racist" "Fascist" "Nazi" "Bigot" etc it does wear you down eventually! Sad

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:18 pm

MrDoodles wrote:

Thanks for explaining that mate! Very Happy

The way I thought your post was going, is that all BNP Members are Nazi's! Sad

The "N" word for an RW, is as bad as the "F" word for a Gay person and I know that RW's aren't supposed to have feelings, but when you get branded "Racist" "Fascist" "Nazi" "Bigot" etc it does wear you down eventually! Sad

I totally understand mate, which is why I don't use it it is a throwaway insult these days, just like those others Evil or Very Mad

I wasn;t saying that here though. I was just trying to debunk this myth that the Nazis did what they did through socialist thinking. Which is not true.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:50 pm


i think my view of this would be very basic and nothing like has been written but.......i say carrying on......the national socialism of Germany at that time was more against capitalism and exploitation of 'others' who they believed did do this to normal German citizen. Hence the hate against the Jews, who were seen to do this as a race or were associated with it. As has been said before Germany had just come out of a depression and so this manner in running the country would of been accepted as a way forward, which in their eyes worked. the taintiness of it was taken on the Nationalist side with how they went about stopping the exploitation and who they blamed. this lead to extreme appalling methods which lead to the murder of millions.


<tin hat on if ready>
bounce

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:24 pm

nitenurse wrote:
i think my view of this would be very basic and nothing like has been written but.......i say carrying on......the national socialism of Germany at that time was more against capitalism and exploitation of 'others' who they believed did do this to normal German citizen. Hence the hate against the Jews, who were seen to do this as a race or were associated with it. As has been said before Germany had just come out of a depression and so this manner in running the country would of been accepted as a way forward, which in their eyes worked. the taintiness of it was taken on the Nationalist side with how they went about stopping the exploitation and who they blamed. this lead to extreme appalling methods which lead to the murder of millions.


<tin hat on if ready>
bounce

Take the tin hat off nurse, I'm actually well impressed alien

I have never heard or thought of it from that perspective before. You do have a point, which I can't really argue with. That said, I don't agree. I think the Nationalist side, if it didn't exist, would not have led to the Holocaust. Maybe it's a mixture of both- maybe the Socialist (for the German) side was born of Nationalist thinking; or maybe vice-versa.

GREAT argument though, it's rare I'm pleasantly surpirsed by an idea I would oppose. Out of interest what are your own political leanings?

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by victorismyhero on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:02 pm

eilzel wrote:

Take the tin hat off nurse, I'm actually well impressed alien

I have never heard or thought of it from that perspective before. You do have a point, which I can't really argue with. That said, I don't agree. I think the Nationalist side, if it didn't exist, would not have led to the Holocaust. Maybe it's a mixture of both- maybe the Socialist (for the German) side was born of Nationalist thinking; or maybe vice-versa.

GREAT argument though, it's rare I'm pleasantly surpirsed by an idea I would oppose. Out of interest what are your own political leanings?

I dont think it can be denied that both nationalist AND socialist ideals, if carried far enough and imposed harshly enough, lead to atrocities, one only has to look at the deaths caused in russia, to the traetment of the jews during the pogroms etc...stalin killed more people than hitler....Further i it perhaps a moot point that nationalism is the CAUSE of what may best be described as xenophobia, I ternd to see it, at least in terms of recent history as the inevitalble rebound to crass socialist thinking...ie importing foreigners , encouraging foreign occupation by stealth, and even if not overtly encouraged...certainly nor frowned upon.
people then tend to think...OI...what about ME...and MY ways...surely they are more important than giving way to to the (percieved) "invader". I suspect, that without the massive immigration thats been going on for decades, RW politics in this country would be a very dead duck indeed, simply because it would have no fuel to feed it.... So...I'll say this...IF we EVER have a RW (be it BNP or something else not yet underway) government...It will be soley the fault of the LW, who have failed, and continue to fail the nation. Up untill about 20 years ago i was a red as any rabid unionite..."power to the people", then i realised what they were up to and what they actually meant for me my. kids and my grand kids, Now i'd cheerfully hang the lot of em, for the mess they have made. And by LW i do mean the lib lab con tripartite alliance
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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:11 pm

eilzel wrote:

Take the tin hat off nurse, I'm actually well impressed alien

I have never heard or thought of it from that perspective before. You do have a point, which I can't really argue with. That said, I don't agree. I think the Nationalist side, if it didn't exist, would not have led to the Holocaust. Maybe it's a mixture of both- maybe the Socialist (for the German) side was born of Nationalist thinking; or maybe vice-versa.

GREAT argument though, it's rare I'm pleasantly surpirsed by an idea I would oppose. Out of interest what are your own political leanings?

arghhh i lost my post because someone else posted??? is that a glitch or just happening to me?

anyway try again but shorter post this time,

hi eilzel

i would be classed as a leftie as such, though politics do bore me. the rise of the Nazi party doesnt. i think its quite interesting how they did come into power and the dynamics that took place in Germany that lead to what we have as history now.

my post is actually based on my dads views and what he taught me, so as i said very basic.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:21 pm

Victor first. Victor, I never questioned the death and murder by Stalin, that wasn't my point. I was trying to get through this bizarre idea some RW thinkers have that the Nazis and BNP have nothing in common- the BNP are very socialist economically anyway, the comparisons are there! All govts mess up eventually, so the LW benifiting from the RW will go on for the forseeable future I imagine, that isn't a one way thing.

Nurse, totally agree. Political upheaval at that whole period interests me. Shame I don't get to see your longer post though:)

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:37 pm

eilzel wrote:

Nurse, totally agree. Political upheaval at that whole period interests me. Shame I don't get to see your longer post though:)

im dealing with a sticky 's' key atm also, which is why i regged as nitenure earlier lol

my original post really went in to how Hitler was very much what Germany needed at that time. they were in a economical depression.they wanted a way out and Hitler and his ways gave them that hope. some may disagree with me but he was in a league of his own and did bring the country up from its knees, one of the charactisic of him that i feel made him appealing as a leader was that he wasnt going to listen to anyone and would get the job done. the fact that he wouldnt listen to even his advisors actually saved us in the war, especially in the battle of Britain.

his ideas were in the making of a great country, his ideal of self destroyed it, anti-semitism views had been placed very early on and it grew as the power gathered speed. they then changed laws and this all lead to a one party country.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:40 pm

nitenurse wrote:

im dealing with a sticky 's' key atm also, which is why i regged as nitenure earlier lol

my original post really went in to how Hitler was very much what Germany needed at that time. they were in a economical depression.they wanted a way out and Hitler and his ways gave them that hope. some may disagree with me but he was in a league of his own and did bring the country up from its knees, one of the charactisic of him that i feel made him appealing as a leader was that he wasnt going to listen to anyone and would get the job done. the fact that he wouldnt listen to even his advisors actually saved us in the war, especially in the battle of Britain.

his ideas were in the making of a great country, his ideal of self destroyed it, anti-semitism views had been placed very early on and it grew as the power gathered speed. they then changed laws and this all lead to a one party country.

I agree entirely. As I said above, Hitlers socialist economic policies did wonders for Germany to start with. You are obviously very well up on this, look forward to it coming up again in the future Smile

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:48 pm

ty, i look forward to it Very Happy

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:06 am

I still hold that Nazi Germany was only moderately socialist. The big companies of the time were hardly torn to shreds and distributed Marxistly to the masses. Rather they were co-opted to the war effort, just as, for that matter, the big companies in Britain and later America were. Do not mistake a command economy for a communist one. They're not always one and the same.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:20 pm

John wrote:I still hold that Nazi Germany was only moderately socialist. The big companies of the time were hardly torn to shreds and distributed Marxistly to the masses. Rather they were co-opted to the war effort, just as, for that matter, the big companies in Britain and later America were. Do not mistake a command economy for a communist one. They're not always one and the same.

See I'm clearly just not so well up on all this. Were there not a lot of nationalized industires in Nazi Germany? I don't know. Nitenurse may have more answers. Though generally John I agree with your initial post- though with a link to Nationalism.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:18 pm

eilzel wrote:

See I'm clearly just not so well up on all this. Were there not a lot of nationalized industires in Nazi Germany? I don't know. Nitenurse may have more answers. Though generally John I agree with your initial post- though with a link to Nationalism.

um i dont think Hitler did nationalize industries, i dont think that was part of his plan, didnt he destroy unions? Question

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:34 pm

John wrote:Arguably more to do with the ideology of eugenics combined with the culture of violence that characterized **** Germany.

In my view it wasn't really all that socialist, unless you also characterize Britain's [1940-1945] war economy as socialist. Both had similar economic

structures.
Oh I don't know John the Communist killed millions the Socialist (national variety) did likewise.

One called home the fatherland the other the Motherland. Both were totalitarian both were popular generally at their inception both were evil personified.

Socialism its more extreme forms and Communism are the politics of mass murder IMO.

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Re: The Holocaust: Nationalist or Socialist atrocity?

Post by Guest on Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:25 pm

Good point H20 - Excellent summary. I agree with your arguments. Although disagreeing with Eilzel I do think he put up a good argument for what must be his deep held beliefs, and has to be complimented. This is what I call a good debate.

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