Heaven....

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:45 pm

stardesk wrote:Morning folks. Molly, here’s the piece that encapsulates in a nutshell what I was saying earlier about life and everything. The middle verse is the explanation. The reference to Gaia is a means of bringing the whole issue down to a personal level. Gaia, as you probably know, was the ancient Greek Mother goddess and creator. But in scientific circles the name is used to mean our planet and the life upon it.

THE JOURNEY

I forced my snorting charger down the paths between the stars, through empty, infinite space.
Forward, forward, slacken not your mighty speed. Onward, onward, seek and find another race.
Hot, flaming belly, push harder, force your breath to straining flanks.
Step lively faithful steed ere we sup yon supernova’s burning death.

A thousand eternities did we traverse, aye, and the same amount of universe.
Past myriads of galaxies we’ve hurled, down past weird nebula and maternity of suns, dead and born again a million times.
Down…down again, deep…so…deep. Infinity! Where is your timeless bend? What your confines? Where the end? How near, how far Eternity? Ageless yet so young, binding yet so boundless. Wondrously prolific yet so lifeless, you create to destroy, destroy to create, innocently conquering, insatiate!

Up, up and down, forward and backward you flow and yet, though all is movement
how still you seem to be to trusty steed and I as through the unbounded universe we pass in awe.
On…on, into hypnotic void of deep space…….
Beloved Gaia, I have seen your face.
------------------------------------------------
The whole thing postulates the never ending cycle of universal life. Something is born, lives its life-span, then dies, but out of the chaos and destruction new life is born. This is seen in the galaxy where we have billions of tons of debris floating around. The debris from an exploding star or destroyed planet will eventually form into another star or planets, asteroids or meteorites, these in their turn will foster new life. And so it goes on, eternally.


God, in this context, has no meaning, no relevance.


Excellent poem stardesk (did you write it?) and yes I can see why you believe there is no need for a God but I still struggle with the fact that it goes on endlessly with no reason to it Shocked

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:53 pm

justanAmericangal wrote:A short story:

In 1979, my ex and I were going camping. We were driving on a 2 lane road in the mountains, with sharp curves, and steep drop-offs. The ex was driving, and turned to look at me to say something. I looked at him. Neither of us noticed he had drifted into the other lane towards oncoming traffic. A very calm, kind, MALE voice spoke in my head. It said; "Pam, turn your head". I did. We were in the path of an oncoming, very large truck. I screamed, the ex swung the car back into our lane, missing the truck by maybe 5 feet short of a head on collision. We were travelling 60 miles per hour. We would both have been killed instantly. I had never heard the voice before, nor since.

To this day, there is no scientific explanation as to what happend. I was not drinking, nor on any drugs. I was only 19 years old, and in great health. I have to take it purely on Faith that it was one of God's angels speaking to me, and I was saved because my work on earth was not done yet, it wasn't "my time". I divorced, re-married, and bore two sons. If I had been killed that day, they never would have been born. Maybe they have some purpose to fulfill here. I don't know, but that incident is what convinced me that God and his angels are real.

I don't push my views on others, but it gives me comfort to think that there may be something to look forward to besides this hateful, sinful world we live in today.


I have read stories about peoples experiences with angels, I believe they are amongst us and helping Very Happy

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:59 pm

I'm the king wrote:

I don't think they do, evolution shows animals have changed, it doesn't say god didn't start it all off and make the 'rules'. same with the big bang.

It maybe means that the bible/koran etc aren't real or, at least, not literal, but I don't think it rules out a god.

I don't believe in god, not because of evolution or the big bang but because I don't see any evidence of there being one. I may be wrong. One thing I am 'sure' of is that is there is a god he had nothing to do with any of the worlds religions.


I totally agree about the worlds religions I think they are all man made and a good way to control people, I have my own relationship with God and dont need another sinner, sorry priest (in my case), telling me what a terrible person I am Rolling Eyes

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Re: Heaven....

Post by victorismyhero on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:50 pm

I think moat of you will know my beliefs in this matter from ADS, however in brief , I am a druid, a particular sort of druid, a hedge druid, which is probably as close to a shamanistic view point as you will get in britains heritage. On the origins of the hedge druid i will post if anyone is interested, but for now for the purposes of this debate I think you will know that I am somewhat in agreement with angel and to some extent with molly,

As I have said on the past, I beleive in a "creator" rather than a "god". I see the creator as having a "truely competant mind" and thus able to know all that was, is and yet shall be", but also accept the possibility that it may NOT be "truely" competant, maybe ...just may be ...he/she isnt as clever as we think he is....

I have made no secret of my beleif that ID (in a particular and specialized application) IS in fact compatible with science...the point angel makes about setting the rules and letting the universe run, is in my own opinion quite as realistic as the posibility of it all "just happening", and this for me removes the god is cruel/cold/evil argument. MAYBE...if we can stop being such arrogant insects for once, we might be able to realise that perhaps we are not "childern of god" or favoured of god, but just another life form that was produced due to the rules....maybe we are NOT what the creator intended to "be" at the end of all things. That said ...i DO look at things another way....the creator set the rules, with a specific (though unknown adgenda), and KNEW at the time of creation that his "creation " was not flawed but would have its share of problems. However the problem he/she faced was this...firstly the problems were an inherent part of the "program"..if he changed the rules to avoid them the program would not run as required.....Secondly....due to the requirements of the "program" he had to "lock himself out"...that is to say he may NOT interfere even to save millions or the program will crash....I'm not saying he KNEW the tsunami would occur on that date , or that so many would die...but he knew tsunamis would happen...he knew diseases would be rife....etc etc....but he gave us a way round it....OUR MINDS....and free will...if we dont use them...who's fault is that....


following is a C&p from a post i made on ADS

from MY own point of view....the creator made all, as i have said....laying down the rules of the universe at the moment of creation. now this immediately leads to a major problem in ALL religions.....and that is the nature of the creator.
logically such an entity would have to be omnipotent and omniscient, however this in turn leads to the athiests view that if that was indeed the case...why all the s**t we have to live (and die) with?
in answer to that i take the view that the creator for all intents and purposes can be seen as omnipotnt and omniscient, but in real and practical terms MAY have limitations on what he can do.
he may have forseen that there would be problems with his choice of humans as his dominant life form....or...he may not have been able to correctly ascertain what the form of life form would be...merely that it would be "intelligent and capable"

Again the problems may have been unavoidable.the rules to allow development of life may have excluded the possibility of immediate perfection..1+3 =4 but if 4 is what you want...but is not perfect ...no tinkering with the rules will allow you to change that fact...1 and 3 are absolutely required, 2+2 wont do because 2 lots of 2 make your universe unstable...

also i ask you this...in the presence of an omnipotent entity...what/who is the ONLY thing that can bind that entity?? the answer is of course the omnipotent entity itself...It MAY be, that in the act of creation, the comming into being of the space/time continuum that the creator "locked" himself OUT of his creation. Either deliberately,for some unkown/unknowable reason, or as a consequence of the natural laws, it may be an entity which is independant of space/time is also incompatible with it too...and if he was to "put his hand through the arch of time" (a quote from the thomas covenant books)he would destroy his creation.

Thus i think that perhaps the creator was perfect in his intent, however sometimes things dont work out just so..the maths (if you will) dont allow it, and maybe...knowing that, he gave US the ability to counter some of the worst crap....we just need to learn...lets face it our ability to treat some of the worst diseases is rapidly incresing...and we are on the threshold of discoveries that could remove some of the most terrible conditions we know...weho knows, with gene therapy etc what is going to be discovered...we stand on the brink of a universal cure for cancer, having cracked the human genome, already there is talk of being able to analyse a cancer someone is suffeing from and tailor a genetically specific cure for that person...ok not tomorrow...but....

I beleive that the human race is actually about 3000-6000 years behind schedule in scientific knowledge, due to the creator perhaps overlooking the fact that some humans (generally those who become leaders) are plain stupid...the destruction of the library at Alexandria...the destruction of the great silver discs from the aztecs, the loss of knowlege from the roman surgeons during the dark ages, the supression of science by the catholic schursh through most of its history, I could go on and on about the knowlege that has been lost and had to be "rediscovered" througout history.

for example...did you know the romans performed surgery, under anaethesia (morphine/heroin)(poppy juice)...and practiced infection control...boiling instruments..washing hands with lye soap..using alcohol....boiling bandage material ...etc etc...immagine where we would be now with surgery...had we not lost that knowlege for over 1000 years.

so the creator did not "deliberately" put us in a world of hurt out of any sort of malice..its kinda inevitable perhaps...BUT he has also given us the tools, if we would but use them, to remove reduce contol these hurts...if we dont...its down to us.

he laid no geas on us, no original sin, there is no aquired sin beyond what we as humans choose to designate as sin..he laid no obligations of worship, no abject grovelling for forgiveness on us, he probably appreciates the odd thankyou now and again, but i doubt our continuous arse licking as practiced by some impresses much, and lets face it...we might well be of great interest to him...but i doubt he's worried if we beleive or not,...he gave us our universe...and said..hey guys...now you can learn and thrive...and, I strongly suspect...not just us, but a multitude of others out there too.

since as most pagans do,i beleive that the circle of life is continouos...death as an issue is at best a minor one from a spiritual point of view, from a human point of course its a problem, we worry about the nature of our own impending demise...will it be painful...what will happen to our families...etc etc..personally i do NOT fear death...i may fear the nature of my death...but not death itself...since i absolutley believe it is not the end. I have no fear of going to hell...no matter how many times gig and vod threaten futiley to send me there (since they are sooo christian)as I consider such a concept incompatible with the idea of an omniscient and generally benficient creator.



to be continued....but i need a cuppa....

continued....

now onto the idea of omniscience. the abrahamic religions most of all have the notion of eternal damnation, often for the most trivial(in the grand shceme of things) offences to the almighty..including even questioning his motives...hmmm....well, lets look at this and why and how this is used.

A classic example of this is the case of onan in genesis

"
The story of Onan, son of Judah, occurs in Genesis 38:3-10: "So [Shua, the wife of Judah] conceived and bore a son, and [Judah] called his name Er. She conceived again and bore a son, and she called his name Onan.... Then Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, and her name was Tamar. But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD killed him. And Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife and marry her, and raise up an heir to your brother." But Onan knew that the heir would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in to his brother's wife, that he emitted on the ground, lest he should give an heir to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD; therefore He killed him also."

now firstly the church and others have falsely used this story to condemn masturbation and also contraception, completly missing the point the in reality, god fried poor old onan for disobeying his orders to impregnate his dead brothers wife..(dunno...perhaps she was an ugly bint)... in fact its a warning about not obeying God. Now heres where i have a problem with this

IF god is omniscient
IF god is all loving
IF god is really concerned with human kind
IF god has ANY concept of fair play

the he would NOT have fried him. The apologists counter by saying god was "testing" onan...well nuts to that...if god IS omniscient then he already KNEW onan would fail, and waht is more, he knew the poor old sod would fail this test even before onan was born. Now what kind of everloving merciful god brings into being a soul which he knows "before the act" will "sin" and that he will kill it?
That truely IS a god to be feared...intemperate, unjust, and EVIL.

now in MY world view, the creator is omniscient, he most likely does know every damn thing i'm going to do...even before I do...but MY creator doesnt care what I do, or perhaps he cares, and thats why he gave me the quality known as empathy...so that I care about what I do, and how it affects others. That doesnt necessarily stop me doing "bad things" but it stops me doing bad things to the point where it causes unnecesary alarm and distress to others. it also frees me to THINK about doing bad things...really bad things ....and thus explore as a "mental experiment" the effect of those things on others and society. THAT enables me to understand the mind of some of the nuttier members of society...without needing to join them in the institutions.

as a necessary extension of this thinking of course I realise that there is no eternal damnation...no hell, no satan as such.... ALL who die cross to the "otherworld" (some pagans...notably wiccans, hold the concept of sommerland, a sort of rainbow coloured fluffy bunny heaven..well ok...if thats what floats yer boat)personally i have NO idea what the otherworld is like, apparently its accessable by the indulgence in certain "exotic" herbal preparations erm ...ok..I'll pass on that. But to be sure ALL go there , which drives the christian mad, cos they are going to find themselves in some very strange company...I mean, you could quite literally find yourself having lunch with hitler, stalin and pol pot... (although, according to some schools of christian theology...that could be the case anyway..provided those interesting individuals REALLY beleived what they did was right )





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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:57 pm

Oh my Victor, you really thought about that one. I think you have posted just about every argument for and against an omnipotent god going!!!!! I think I am going to take time to read, learn and most especially inwardly digest that one. And have a greenie, that two I have given today, you and Skemster, well thought out very interesting posts, wore your fingers to the bone you did!!!!!!

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:10 pm

Yes Molly, it is one of my poems. It wasn't until a long time after writing it that I really understood what I had written. Strange as that may seem.

An excellent post Victor, which lays out your beliefs admirably. It broaches on the Shamanic explanation for creation and the afterlife, but from my point of view we have to take the mysticism and spirituality out of the creation scenario. I do not believe God or any other suprior being is responsible for the birth, death, re-generation of life, including the planets, stars and galaxies. I believe in a continuous natural creation that goes on ad-infinitum. We humans are just one example of the multitude of life-forms in the universe. We may have developed a brain/mind capable of abstract and imaginary thoughts, a brain that gives us awareness of our individuality, but we are still biologically animals. Surely it is our human minds which have created god for if we take humans out of the equation there is no god. Unless of course he gets pleasure from animals, but they cannot have an appreciation of a creator, cannot reverence him. Which brings us to another interesting point: Did he create us just so he could have creatures that were subservient to him, pay him hommage, fear him?


Last edited by stardesk on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:20 pm

stardesk wrote:Morning folks. Molly, here’s the piece that encapsulates in a nutshell what I was saying earlier about life and everything. The middle verse is the explanation. The reference to Gaia is a means of bringing the whole issue down to a personal level. Gaia, as you probably know, was the ancient Greek Mother goddess and creator. But in scientific circles the name is used to mean our planet and the life upon it.

THE JOURNEY

I forced my snorting charger down the paths between the stars, through empty, infinite space.
Forward, forward, slacken not your mighty speed. Onward, onward, seek and find another race.
Hot, flaming belly, push harder, force your breath to straining flanks.
Step lively faithful steed ere we sup yon supernova’s burning death.

A thousand eternities did we traverse, aye, and the same amount of universe.
Past myriads of galaxies we’ve hurled, down past weird nebula and maternity of suns, dead and born again a million times.
Down…down again, deep…so…deep. Infinity! Where is your timeless bend? What your confines? Where the end? How near, how far Eternity? Ageless yet so young, binding yet so boundless. Wondrously prolific yet so lifeless, you create to destroy, destroy to create, innocently conquering, insatiate!

Up, up and down, forward and backward you flow and yet, though all is movement
how still you seem to be to trusty steed and I as through the unbounded universe we pass in awe.
On…on, into hypnotic void of deep space…….
Beloved Gaia, I have seen your face.
------------------------------------------------
The whole thing postulates the never ending cycle of universal life. Something is born, lives its life-span, then dies, but out of the chaos and destruction new life is born. This is seen in the galaxy where we have billions of tons of debris floating around. The debris from an exploding star or destroyed planet will eventually form into another star or planets, asteroids or meteorites, these in their turn will foster new life. And so it goes on, eternally.


God, in this context, has no meaning, no relevance.

I didn't realise that was your own poem Star, it very evocative. My this is a good discussion, for that you deserve a alien as well!!!!

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:23 pm

Hi Sassy, yes all my own work, one of many. Bless you for the greenie. Hope you're feeling ok. Yes it is a good discussion and how refreshing it is not have the pathetic abuse as we had in ADS. It feels as though I'm having a discussion with dear friends in my own sitting room.


Last edited by stardesk on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:30 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:26 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Sassy, yes all my own work, one of many. Bless you for the greenie. Hope you're feeling ok.

I'm getting there thanks. Watching good discussions is keeping my mind occupied!

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:34 pm

Yes that's very important. Don't sit alone and brood on negative issues, as painful and traumatic as they were. Don't just watch the discussions, take part, that way you'll be even busier and occupied.

Sorry to be so factual but, that's me, and no offence meant. My wife often says I'm too hard, too positive. That's my own fault for all the studying I've done over the years, and yet underneath all that I do have a very emotional side.


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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:04 pm

stardesk wrote:Evening everyone. Eilzel, in today's (Wednesday) Daily Express there is a big article all about psychic and spiritual experiences. An expert on the subject has, over a long period, investigated these events and has reached the conclusion that it is indeed a part of our brain that conjures up ghosts, apparitions, and all those spiritual experiences that many people believe are from Spirits and ghosts etc

That does make sense, and would cover all these mixed up delusions people have- Gods, ghosts, premonitions etc. The human mind can imagine so much, yet some people are always surprised when they think they've witnessed something out of the ordinary Smile

Great poem by the way. The Universe is too immense, too chaotic, and too cold for a involved deity to be involved. Good read alien

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:30 pm

Thanks Eilzel, and agree with you about the Universe. Although out of chaos comes order and of course the opposite, out of order comes chaos, I cannot see the logic in believing a god was/is responsible.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:01 pm

stardesk wrote:Yes that's very important. Don't sit alone and brood on negative issues, as painful and traumatic as they were. Don't just watch the discussions, take part, that way you'll be even busier and occupied.

Sorry to be so factual but, that's me, and no offence meant. My wife often says I'm too hard, too positive. That's my own fault for all the studying I've done over the years, and yet underneath all that I do have a very emotional side.


No offence taken Star, I am the same, I have to be positive. I have the time when I scream and cry, and one morning woke up with bruised knuckles from punching something!!!!! Luckily my other half looked whole!!! I believe in not dwelling and thinking of the good things. Does not always work, but it makes it a lot easier.

Anyway, back to subject, I just remember as a child thinking, if everyone goes to heaven with all the people who have lived since time began, how would the cave men get on with the people today! Have to confess, I came up with some odd theories in my early years!!!

PS, anyone who wrote that poem can't be hard, simply not possible.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Hi Sassy. I think we are all more than one character, for we put on a face for the general public, one for friends, and another one for our loved ones.

Now that's a good point you mentioned, pre-historic spirits trying to mingle with our tech minded spirits of today. Crikey, utter confusion I'd say, unless they have their own quarter, like with like.

I'll come back to this point later and talk of a spiritualist based intuitive idea on life in the here after. Bye for now.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:32 pm

molly wrote:


I have read stories about peoples experiences with angels, I believe they are amongst us and helping Very Happy

Thanks, Molly.... Smile

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:21 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Sassy. I think we are all more than one character, for we put on a face for the general public, one for friends, and another one for our loved ones.

Now that's a good point you mentioned, pre-historic spirits trying to mingle with our tech minded spirits of today. Crikey, utter confusion I'd say, unless they have their own quarter, like with like.

I'll come back to this point later and talk of a spiritualist based intuitive idea on life in the here after. Bye for now.


Hi stardesk, still waiting Laughing

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:47 am

Hi Molly, sorry for keeping you waiting, went to a friends birthday party last night so didn't get round to it. I have no doubt you've heard the expression 'the seventh heaven,' which may have come from people who have also had the following experience.

Right, here goes: During my involvement with Spiritualism I used to sit in what they call a 'closed circle.' Should you not know, it's literally a group of experienced people, chosen by the Medium in charge, sitting in a circle. A certain amount of relaxation and meditation is required during which there is a build up of energy. This energy is then utilized by spirits, if you're lucky, who then come through with whatever message they wish to give. But during these sessions I began to get an understanding, (or should that be impression?) of spiritual levels in the after-life. At the first level which is where we all go first, when we die, it is rather dull, heavy, perhaps frightening, but from there we are guided to a higher level which suits our character, mentality, our credits earned in life if you like.

Cutting this explanation short, after a long period of time during which we slowly rise through different levels, our spirit, which is a compacted energy force, will eventually disipate and merge with the energy which constitutes the Universe. In that sense we have eternal life but possibly not aware anymore of our own individual identity.

Although I moved on into other realms of research, that vision (?) is still with me and although I no longer believe in a God and Heaven, there are times I like to think I'll survive. Later on I'll tell you of another event I psychically saw.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:31 pm

Evening stardesk.

I actually prefer your version of what happens to us after we pass but I think we have to do learn our lessons here on earth, we spend some time in heaven going over what we have done and what we have learned, then we have to go through this life again, depressing thought but eventually we will have evolved spritually enough to have earned our place in heaven.

I find it fascinating that you once believed. I think I would struggle with life if I did not think it was all for a good reason.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:09 pm

Hi Molly, thanks for your reply. I was brought up in the C. of E. and it wasn't until my late twenties I began researching in ernest, and slowly came out of the religious trap, (if that's the right expression.) Of course, all that indoctrination as a youngster is still buried deep within my mind which encourages me to think I'll survive my death. I have a pet dream, or vision, of sitting at the feet of the old philosophers and wise men of ancient times, such as Aristotle, Plato, Timaeus, lol! with a cup of coffee and a fag, of course. We might change directions throughout life but memories of the journey stay with us.

Forgive me for talking about myself but I realised, especially after some of the things I've written, that I had shamanic leanings, and that, coupled with everything else I've learned in life, now gives me the opportunity to try to help others break away from the rigours and mind-trapping of religion. I've written several articles for the Pagan Federation's magazine 'Pagan Dawn,' and would love to put them on the Forum but they're about 2 pages of A4. I'll ask Admin if that will be acceptable.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:29 pm

Hi stardesk, I think you are right when you say religious trap, I still struggle with guilt at times as I was brought up as roman catholic, one of the worst religions imo.

Will we be allowed our ciggies in heaven do you think Laughing

Dont be sorry for talking about yourself I am very interested in your experiences, I used to work beside a spiritulist and was forever asking him questions. I am always seeking reassurance of a life beyond this one and I hope admin will grant your request Very Happy I will look forward to reading it.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:16 am

Good morning Molly and everyone.

Molly, I can well understand your feelings of guilt. I too went through that phase. As daft as it may seem, on one occasion when I was breaking away from religion and going through a traumatic period in my life, I literally shouted up to the heavens and said 'God, I no longer believe in you, so do your worst, strike me down with a bolt of lightning,' Of course and obviously, it didn't happen. From that moment on my outlook on life and my beliefs took a completely different turning. From then on I began to delve into and take part in all religions and mythology, eventually ending up on evolutions doorstep.


Ciggies in heaven? I hope so Molly, but perhaps we'll have to take the lift down to Satan's department to enjoy our little comforts... lol!

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