Heaven....

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:39 pm

Seren wrote:If you believe in heaven then you have to believe in purgatory of course.

But many people do not. Also, there are even people that do not believe in Hell, which makes the whole time wasted on earth rather pointless in my opinion.

I think alot sculpt what they learn from religion to suit their own spiritual view. It is very shallow and fanciful to do so imo, why not just judge on what we know and build on that?

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:58 pm

eilzel wrote:

But many people do not. Also, there are even people that do not believe in Hell, which makes the whole time wasted on earth rather pointless in my opinion.

I think alot sculpt what they learn from religion to suit their own spiritual view. It is very shallow and fanciful to do so imo, why not just judge on what we know and build on that?

Yes there are of course atheists but they are generally outnumbered by "believers".

Going back to the subject of heaven, the last pope spoke about the three - heaven, hell and purgatory - as being states as opposed to places. He was echoing St. Thomas Aquinas here. He spoke of heaven as being a communion with God so rather than a place or dwelling-place of God from whence he descends to judge us, the new testament concentrates more on living with Christ within heaven.

To quote Apostle Paul:

"God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:4-7). The fatherhood of God, who is rich in mercy, is experienced by creatures through the love of God's crucified and risen Son, who sits in heaven on the right hand of the Father as Lord.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:01 pm

victorismyhero wrote:


((((((HUGS)))))) for you Sass

Thank you Victor xx

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Re: Heaven....

Post by SEXY MAMA on Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:46 pm

eilzel wrote:

But yesterday you said this life is nothing? Nothing and a gift are two very different things in most peoples eyes Sexy.

Also, let's look at most Islamic countries. Pakistan, Iran, Saudi, Syria, Libya etc. All suffer mass poverty, are ruled by oppressive regimes, are deprived in many cases of freedom of choice and speech. So in Islam life is sacred and a gift from God. Then why does Allah see those most faithful suffer so bady whilst non-believers living in sin in the western world and elsewhere have good health, hardly any poverty at all and freedom to say and do as they will?

Why have this world at all if we are bound for heaven in the end?

Sorry i didnt make myself clear!

Life in this world is nothing compared to the afterlife!

This life is a test and we are all tested! Look at the orophets ALL of them were tested espeacially Abraham!
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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:12 pm

Hey SM, isn't it nice to discuss both Christian and Muslim idealogies and atheism without all the mud-slinging

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:19 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Sorry i didnt make myself clear!

Life in this world is nothing compared to the afterlife!

This life is a test and we are all tested! Look at the orophets ALL of them were tested espeacially Abraham!

I know exactly what you are saying Sexy. But as phil and king pointed out on ADS, why the test when God knows the result anyway? Why put people through such ordeals of suffering and fights between good and evil when they all end up in the same place?

Seren; I was not referring to atheists. I was referring to all kinds of believers who seem to have opposing views on Heaven, whether there even hell let alone purgatory and how we end up in any of these places. It seems vastly unlikely there is going to be a place of judgment, since afterall most believers seem to think this life is our 'test' (see Sexys replies).

Oh and totally agree on how great it is without the hate mob mixing it up. Check out our religion section, No endless reams of anti-Islam propoganda from all corners of the earth cheers

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Re: Heaven....

Post by SEXY MAMA on Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:57 pm

Seren wrote:Hey SM, isn't it nice to discuss both Christian and Muslim idealogies and atheism without all the mud-slinging

Hiya Seren,

Yes this feel sureal! Im so used to abuse!

I just got accused of being disloyal to Sphinx cause i said you know how to run a nutter free forum!

Very Happy
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Re: Heaven....

Post by SEXY MAMA on Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:59 pm

Les i dont know why He tests when he knows the outcome?

All i know is that HE is my creator and i have to obey HIM!
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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:21 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:Les i dont know why He tests when he knows the outcome?

All i know is that HE is my creator and i have to obey HIM!

'Obey'? So as a Muslim you are not allowed free will?

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:10 pm

God doesn't know the outcome, we can either come through the test and have learned something or fail miserably and be bitter about life.

I think organised religions are a way of making money and controlling people but I do believe in God and I believe there are forces out there for good and evil and we can choose which way we go.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:17 pm

molly wrote:God doesn't know the outcome, we can either come through the test and have learned something or fail miserably and be bitter about life.

I think organised religions are a way of making money and controlling people but I do believe in God and I believe there are forces out there for good and evil and we can choose which way we go.

So you believe that God has created the universe, along with Heaven (and so by default, Hell)? Yet has no idea how it will all end up (the Sun going supernova and destroying life and earth- scientists have a fair idea even if God dosen't)?

Also, that God has created the potential for good and evil, and has a wonderful place for wrongdoers to go and be punished eternally- even though he made them so its really his fault?

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant here molly. But to say I'm skeptical of religion and God would be an understatement. I'd am of course interested in any thoughts you have on the questions surrounding it all Smile

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:40 pm

Well, when you put it like that Laughing

Unfortunately there is no proof that heaven and hell do exist so I am going on blind faith and if it makes me weak then so be it. I cannot see how we can be so close to people on earth and have no chance of seeing them again in another place.

I honestly dont think there is a hell but I believe in reincarnation and we keep learning.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>molly wrote:God doesn't know the outcome, we can either come through the test and have learned something or fail miserably and be bitter about life.

I think organised religions are a way of making money and controlling people but I do believe in God and I believe there are forces out there for good and evil and we can choose which way we go.
</BLOCKQUOTE>



Eilzel wrote: So you believe that God has created the universe, along with Heaven (and so by default, Hell)? Yet has no idea how it will all end up (the Sun going supernova and destroying life and earth- scientists have a fair idea even if God dosen't)?

Also, that God has created the potential for good and evil, and has a wonderful place for wrongdoers to go and be punished eternally- even though he made them so its really his fault?

Sorry if I sound a bit arrogant here molly. But to say I'm skeptical of religion and God would be an understatement. I'd am of course interested in any thoughts you have on the questions surrounding it all Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Molly & Eilzel. Molly, if God created Man and imbued him with all the attributes of good and bad, then surely he does know the outcome, and is responsible for heaven and hell. Failing that, we would all have been single-minded, like-minded automatons, with no choices in life.

Eilzel makes a good point about the end of the Sun and Earth etc. What we aught to do is put aside for a moment the metaphysical, spiritual side of God and religion and look at the real, physical world, and compare it to the supposed Creation stories in the Bible. When fair and honest comparisons are made one will see and realise just how preposterous and contradictory are the stories of creation in Genesis. This planet, no doubt like so many others, is not a stable and safe paradise. You know yourselves of the terrible disasters just in our lifetimes in which many thousands of people have perished. How contradictory and false is it when we read in Genesis that after he finished his creating, God 'Saw that it was good.'

Going now but will be back soon.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:12 pm

Science isn't absolute either http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/mar/19/evolution-darwin-natural-selection-genes-wrong

Do we know for certain that the sun will go supernova?

We all know we will die one day and whether it is an illness, a natural disaster or a tragic accident there are many ways to leave the world but it doesn't mean God is cruel it is unfortunately a fact of life. I think the earth has served us well so far.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:20 pm

molly wrote:Science isn't absolute either http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/mar/19/evolution-darwin-natural-selection-genes-wrong

Do we know for certain that the sun will go supernova?

We all know we will die one day and whether it is an illness, a natural disaster or a tragic accident there are many ways to leave the world but it doesn't mean God is cruel it is unfortunately a fact of life. I think the earth has served us well so far.

why unfortunate, eternal life, yuck Shocked

whilst we spend so much time trying to live longer maybe we should ask ourselves if we would want to live into our hundreds.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:33 pm

A very interesting article Molly, though I admit I rushed through toward the end Wink

First point- This dosen't say evolution is wrong. It simply questions certain details concerning genes. It also focuses on isolated areas as evidence that Darwins theory of Evolution is not correct- which is a bit hasty really, over a broader spectrum it is clear Darwins theory of evolution is apprarent and hard to challenge.

Second point- Whilst science cannot claim to be absolute all of the time it can certainly claim to be absolute MOST of the time. Some things are beyond question. Where can religion claim any of its truths as absolute and provide evidence for doing so?

I don't know for certain the sun will go supernova, I am not so well up, though I am pretty sure that is what happens; stars have a lifespan and after so long (billions of years) the explode and die out- with obvious destructive results.

And yes we may die through natural disaster (on the planet God made for us), illness (which will have been provided by God), an accident (caused by Gods creations) BUT God isn't cruel??? It is a fact of life those things happen, but isn't it therefore a fact that God is ultimately responsible.

Earth did a pretty dire job of serving 1/3 of Europe well during the Black Death; or 6 million Jews in the Holocaust; or even more millions of Chinese during famine under Mao.

Let me ask you this. People died in the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig. The spill that followed ruined lives and left thousands and animals dead and their homes destroyed. This is down to human incompetence. But according to your above logic, we SHOULD NOT have blamed the Chairman of BP (don't know his name, not Tony Hayward, the guy above him).

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:46 pm

Seren wrote:

why unfortunate, eternal life, yuck Shocked

whilst we spend so much time trying to live longer maybe we should ask ourselves if we would want to live into our hundreds.


When I say unfortunately I mean for the people left behind as I will be sitting very comfy on my little cloud having a rest (I hope Laughing )

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:14 pm

eilzel wrote:A very interesting article Molly, though I admit I rushed through toward the end Wink

First point- This dosen't say evolution is wrong. It simply questions certain details concerning genes. It also focuses on isolated areas as evidence that Darwins theory of Evolution is not correct- which is a bit hasty really, over a broader spectrum it is clear Darwins theory of evolution is apprarent and hard to challenge.

Second point- Whilst science cannot claim to be absolute all of the time it can certainly claim to be absolute MOST of the time. Some things are beyond question. Where can religion claim any of its truths as absolute and provide evidence for doing so?

I don't know for certain the sun will go supernova, I am not so well up, though I am pretty sure that is what happens; stars have a lifespan and after so long (billions of years) the explode and die out- with obvious destructive results.

And yes we may die through natural disaster (on the planet God made for us), illness (which will have been provided by God), an accident (caused by Gods creations) BUT God isn't cruel??? It is a fact of life those things happen, but isn't it therefore a fact that God is ultimately responsible.

Earth did a pretty dire job of serving 1/3 of Europe well during the Black Death; or 6 million Jews in the Holocaust; or even more millions of Chinese during famine under Mao.

Let me ask you this. People died in the explosion of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig. The spill that followed ruined lives and left thousands and animals dead and their homes destroyed. This is down to human incompetence. But according to your above logic, we SHOULD NOT have blamed the Chairman of BP (don't know his name, not Tony Hayward, the guy above him).


I know very little about the scientifict stuff eilzel, my point was that an accepted theory in these circles is now being questioned and I am the first to admit that all the spiritual stuff cannot be proven but it is what gets me through my day.

There will always be new diseases and more often than not a cure or a way to live with the disease will be found. One man was responsible for the death of the Jews and as for the famine wasn't that down to one man (apologies if I'm wrong). I wouldn't say the earth had anything to do with these.

Yes, we should blame BP for this disaster, sheer greed and man thinking he can own this planet, I believe this planet will be destroyed but it will be man who does it not God.

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:21 pm

molly wrote:


I know very little about the scientifict stuff eilzel, my point was that an accepted theory in these circles is now being questioned and I am the first to admit that all the spiritual stuff cannot be proven but it is what gets me through my day.

There will always be new diseases and more often than not a cure or a way to live with the disease will be found. One man was responsible for the death of the Jews and as for the famine wasn't that down to one man (apologies if I'm wrong). I wouldn't say the earth had anything to do with these.

Yes, we should blame BP for this disaster, sheer greed and man thinking he can own this planet, I believe this planet will be destroyed but it will be man who does it not God.

Ok, I think we can leave it there then Molly. But if man destroys the planet, then God IS to blame as God created man, knowing full well the extent of mans destructiveness- we are built in his image afterall. You see why its hard to believe in the face of such inconsistencies and contradictions Laughing

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:26 pm

aaaarrgghhhhh!!!! Laughing

God is not responsible for the evil that man commits!!

Anyway, God will make a new planet Razz

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:34 pm

molly wrote:aaaarrgghhhhh!!!! Laughing

God is not responsible for the evil that man commits!!

Anyway, God will make a new planet Razz

Of course he is!!! He made man, so he's clearly pretty capable, he made people with the ability to do bad things. So HOW is he not responsible???

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:52 pm

I'd just like to pop in at this point to say, especially for Molly, that yes, Darwin's findings re evolution were, at that time, just theories. But now, over 100 years later, science has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that evolution is/was a fact. There are hundreds, if not thousands of fossils in museums worldwide showing transitional stages from one type of fish/animal/bird etc. to another form of life. Trouble is these days, because there are still questions that science hasn't as yet answered, Creationists jump into that gap and say God did it. Just for the record, of this discussion anyway, you may not know it, like the vast majority of people, there are now discovered and catalogued 4 different species of Humans. 3 of them, like poor old Neanderthalis, became extinct.

There is now such a wealth of information available, both online and in mags and books, that it is so easy to find out the truth. One way of dispencing with God is to familiarize yourself with the mythologies of the world. When you study this subject you will begin to realise that Jehovah is no more nor less than another one of many hundreds of Gods. If you've got time, have a look at this website concerning fossil transitions.

http://australianmuseum.net.au/Chinese-dinosaurs

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:41 pm

eilzel wrote:

Of course he is!!! He made man, so he's clearly pretty capable, he made people with the ability to do bad things. So HOW is he not responsible???


God gave man the ability to choose good or bad deeds.

That is a problem because who can or even wants to be good all the time?!

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:45 pm

molly wrote:


God gave man the ability to choose good or bad deeds.

That is a problem because who can or even wants to be good all the time?!

God gave man the ability to do bad deeds. True, God gave man the ability, reason and excuses to muder, rape, abuse other people etc.

God made a world which he/she/it knew would on occassion kill hundreds, thousands, millions (and in the future maybe billions) of people.

God created a world with diseases that would infect people during procreation (a neccessity) and through various other means.

BUT, God is not cruel Rolling Eyes

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Re: Heaven....

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:53 pm

stardesk wrote:I'd just like to pop in at this point to say, especially for Molly, that yes, Darwin's findings re evolution were, at that time, just theories. But now, over 100 years later, science has proven beyond a shadow of doubt that evolution is/was a fact. There are hundreds, if not thousands of fossils in museums worldwide showing transitional stages from one type of fish/animal/bird etc. to another form of life. Trouble is these days, because there are still questions that science hasn't as yet answered, Creationists jump into that gap and say God did it. Just for the record, of this discussion anyway, you may not know it, like the vast majority of people, there are now discovered and catalogued 4 different species of Humans. 3 of them, like poor old Neanderthalis, became extinct.

There is now such a wealth of information available, both online and in mags and books, that it is so easy to find out the truth. One way of dispencing with God is to familiarize yourself with the mythologies of the world. When you study this subject you will begin to realise that Jehovah is no more nor less than another one of many hundreds of Gods. If you've got time, have a look at this website concerning fossil transitions.

http://australianmuseum.net.au/Chinese-dinosaurs


Hi stardesk, as I said the whole evolution and science thing hasn't interested me but I am going to look into it some more. I have had quick look and the thing that I keep seeing is we are getting closer to the answer and some dont agree but.....

I dont actually believe in organised religion but I do believe in God and I dont need some fake pious human telling me I am bad and if I give them all my money I will be saved but there has to be something else out there.

I will be back!!! Very Happy

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